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And I'm not making excuses for my husband, he really is nada que ver with this culture on so many levels.
It's basically just my experience of it I guess, working alongside them (8- hours a day), commuting with them (I commuted alongside them for almost 10 months) on the streets etc etc...of course I have met a few nice Chileans here and there, but not many - unfortunately this has been my experience and my opinion of it first hand.
I've been here for 4 years and commuted from Estacion Central to classes every day for a year and a half and I experienced just as much shit as you have. When things were switching over from the old bus system to TranSantiago it was HELL. I'm sure a lot of people do agree with you that again, on a societal level, Chileans can be nasty, as you say. But I really do think that on an individual level they're just as nice as anywhere else.
I understand though, we've all had our experiences here. Some people don't think Chile is as dangerous as I do because my perspective has been totally shaped by the things that have happened to me, as your perspective about Chileans level of niceness has been shaped only by the people you've met.
PS. EVERY single gringa thinks that her Chilean is different. Maybe they are...or maybe, just maybe, there are a lot more really awesome Chileans out there who don't think along the lines of general Chilean society as we know it :)
I'm not sure if we're even arguing the same point here. Like I said, the rudeness and everything on a societal level, yes, agree, as I think most people would. I'm not sure I'm really understanding what we're differing on. Are you saying that on an individual level you think most Chileans are nasty, and that a lot of Chileans and foreigners agree with you on that point?
I'm definitely not going to argue that there are nasty individuals (like in every society) but I guess I just think those are definitely the minority.
No, not individual Chileans, Chileans on a societal level. I meant it as an individual experience being MY experience of it.
And perhaps nasty is too strong a word...better said self centred and "inconsciente" of others.
Yes, there are nasty people in every society, I've lived in 4 countries to know that, but MY OWN experience is that I've experienced it far more here than in any other place.
i will never get used to people pushing and shoving and knocking me out of my place while waiting in line for anything, but i know í´m guilty sometimes of just saying ¨fuck it all¨when i´m stressed or have had a bad day and pushing back.
i´ve seen a woman who pushed in front of me to get on the metro, get off and go up the metro stairs to buy dinner to give to the couple that begs outside of metro santa lucia every night. it makes me think that the way chileans are in public is just their street face and that they´re conditioned to be defensive because i´ve met some pretty amazing people here, but i´ve never run into them on the metro or waiting in line for something, but i´m sure some of them are bad pushers and shovers :P
I’ve experienced that twice, about Chile and my host country.
And yes, obviously the U.S. has it's own set of problems. That's why I said, "we definitely have our own set of problems." I had reverse culture shock so bad when I went back after 1.5 years in Chile that I actually went to see a shrink! But this post is in no way glamorizing the U.S. so I'm not really sure what that has to do with it.
I didn't take any offense or anything and I did read your post. I was just remembering the two cases of Reverse Cultural shock I suffered and I thought I would share it with you.
While abroad I never did miss Chilean food though! But in Chile we would go to TGI Friday's every week.
So funny about TGI Friday's because even though I never used to go there in the U.S. here I always get cravings to go there when I'm nostalgic so I definitely feel ya on that. :)
Here I've noticed differences between south and north east in several of these concepts. For example, I haven't been to a single crowded concert in the NE where people haven't pushed me or been rude. Whereas here in Austin everyone respects your space and apologizes for bumping into you. My friends said it's like that on the West coast, too. So go figure.
Part of me really feels for Tamsin, though. Commuting every day is BRUTAL. It honestly traumatizes you. People are just so ridiculous. I have so many bad memories. It wasn't always that way, it just seemed to get bad in mid-2007. I used to brag about how nice public transportation was before the whole transport shift.
In any case, my suegros claim that transantiago is getting better, but then again they hardly ever use it so I don't think I'll believe it until I see it for my self.
I don't think O. is saved from certain Chilean cultural things. The other day I wanted to host a prospective grad student at our apartment and O. was vehemently opposed. "I don't know him, he said, "he could, "steal our stuff." "You're so Chilean" , I retorted. Call me naive, but some days I just want to trust people!!!!!!
And LOL at O. not wanting to host a grad student. S. is all wary of the people we have come through for couchsurfing too!
That just might be your personal experience.
DUDE I don't miss Chile at all. I was expecting crazy reverse culture shock but I didn't experience it at all. I was so ready to go home. I wanted to bow down and kiss my home soil.
I miss my husband's family and my gringa friends and my english students, but I wake up every morning so grateful I'm not back there. I LOVE living in the US now.
I had some reverse culture shock when I came back from being abroad because I was in love with a Chilean, idealized Chile and had the study abroad experience. Now I LOVE the US in a way I never have before. My chilean husband LOVES the US, too. We don't ever want to go back to live there full time again. Just for vacations.
And if we miss Chilean food, we make it. We have everything we need here. We even found pisco. I'm even making maraqueta, found the recipe and everything.
So anyway, I think it's a really relative thing. Some people are just ready to get out and others can stay forever. I respect those people, I really do, but I'm not one of them at all!
Girls, what is this referring to your husbands as S. and O. and such. Is that blog etiquette or just your style? Is you blog girls only?
(I don't blogs. As a matter of fact, you're my first)
I use S. for my husband's name because I don't ever want a future employer to google him and find MY blog and judge him based on things that I've written.
Especially not certain people involved in custody battles who could try and use this stuff against him/me/his family.
Unanswered: is this blog intended for girls only?
The only difference for me is that when I first moved to Brazil I felt like the cutting in line, etc. (not as much elbowing here) was rude. I think now it is just this obliviousness to people around them. It's just different for me and hard to get used to.
Amanda - I was so glad to see your comment about your experiences with reverse culture shock or lack there of. I'm beginning to think I will feel the same as you when I return to the US in Oct. I feel like I will miss simply being an ex-pat, but not really Brazil. I was tired of the US when I left, but I have renewed appreciation for all I have/can have there. For me, I often wonder if this was the purpose/destiny of the whole experience for me. We'll see.
Psicometodos, I can't WAIT to see how rude the infamously horrible French people are. I'm actually excited to see it in action! I've never heard that Spaniards are rude, but I trust your judgment so I guess I will experience that for myself when we're traveling...
I am fascinated to hear the results of your survey, please let me know!
Also in regards to the shootings in the news, it's not like everywhere in the country people are just walking around with guns. I think a tiny percentage of people are shot a year...but of course those are the only events that make the news, so that's all people in Chile hear about.
Or maybe since I lived in the U.S. I'm just immune to it. I've never been worried that someone was going to shoot me, nor have I ever known anyone who was shot (with the exception of a friend who committed suicide and shot himself). Oddly enough, that seems to be something that Chileans are very afraid of. A lot of the people I've met here have the same fear as you.
Lori, do you know any foreigners living in the U.S. who have blogs who want to come comment on this post? I don't think I have any no my blog roll or I'd get them over here to opine, because you're right, that would be super interesting!
I don't let it bother me anymore...but it used to drive me crazy, especially when I was visiting regularly from Buenos Aires where, for all their faults, there's a layer of civility similar to what we expect in the UK or US (although don't get me started on why Chilean society is infinitely more appealing than Argentine once that layer is stripped off...)
It's also much worse in Santiago and even in Vina/Valpo. Head south, even just a couple of hours to Santa Cruz and the attitude changes completely. The people in the Lake District are an entirely different Chilean as well. I want to live in the country ...
I miss Chile when I'm away. Despite its faults, it's home :)
We are not all serial killers just as you all are not Pinochets. And you know what, I heard that there's a theory that perhaps there are just as many serial killers in other places. And HELLO, have you looked into Juarez lately? Are you saying you're scared of any other country where people are murdered? I would sound ridiculous if I said I never wanted to go to Mexico, etc. because it scares me.
Amanda, I do think this is a common fear in Chile, even though it's unjustified. But I wouldn't say that it's an ignorant opinion, simply because if you watch the news here, the ONLY things they show about the U.S. is the really bad news. The school shootings are the only things that make headlines, nobody cares if Bill Gates has solved world hunger. It's a naive opinion yes, but in my opinion, I don't think he's being totally ignorant, since that is how the U.S. is portrayed here.
I also don't know why that comment was directed at me. Do I seem like a serial killer? Am I parading around guns? No. I felt like it was kind of nada que ver. Chileans hate it when you say you don't like living in Chile, but sometimes I just have to be honest!
I didn't notice it was directed at you, LOL. Amanda, please stop wielding weapons at JMCS, damn it! :P
In fact, I take issue with defining Santiaguinos as representative of all Chileans. There's a reason many people from región call Santiago Santiasco, including myself. I personally hate Santiago not just because of the smog, TransFracaso, and its inherent classism in neighborhoods, but mainly for its people. Santiaguinos are the equivalent of people born, raised and who have never left NYC. Take them to the Midwest or even California and they complain about anything and everything. New Yorkers are famous for their rudeness and cara de palo street attitude, but it's a way to cope with living among 14 million people.
I think it's most unfortunate that most study abroad students or ex-pats who settle in Chile only live in Santiago. As someone who was born in provincia and has lived various years in other parts of Chile, I would say they're missing two-thirds of the true Chilean experience. After all, Santiago is only one-third of Chile's population.
Defining the United States by having lived only in say, redneck Arkansas, where they might confuse South America as being Georgia, Alabama, Florida and Louisiana (true story!), would be so skewed a view that it wouldn't merit value.
In fact, maybe I disagree with your assertion that its true on a societal level. In Punta Arenas, I would regularly get sucked into 15 minute conversations with everyone from the lady helping me out with paperwork at Banmedica to the owner and workers of a place that sold dried fruit. And mind you, this was when I still had somewhat of a noticeable gringo accent.
I've traveled some with my father within Chile and in reaction to his great sense of humor, sharp wit, and off-the-cuff comments to anyone he interacts with, from car rental attendants to waitresses, the ONLY people who I've seen respond to his jokes and jabs are people outside of Santiago.
I reckon your vision would be completely different if you'd spent at least a month living outside of Santiago. After all, Santiago no es Chile.
Santiago doesn't define Chile, but you can't try to leave it out of the equation when you talk about the country. Arkansas only would be a pretty misrepresentative view of the U.S., but Arkansa(onians?) don't make up 1/3 of the U.S. population either. Like it or not Santiago is a huge chunk of life in Chile...I think that 1/3 of the population of Chile resides in Chile, but I could be wrong and I'm too lazy to look up stats right now.
I've been following this post and the comments all day and finally have a chance to respond! In short, I agree with you. I remember writing that the hardest part of living in Chile for me was the fact that as a society, people don't think of others (and Matt actually wrote a very similar comment to the one he's written here). In California I feel like there's not much of a disconnect between how people act one-on-one and how they act on the streets or when they're just part of the herd. Here, however, there is a big difference! It goes back to a lot of topics that you've written about before, such as the distrust issue - as Amanda mentioned, once you're in you're really in, but until you get a connection to a group you're seen as an outsider. And there's not much of a community feeling extended to outsiders.
I can see how to a certain extent, these guys we've got aren't typical Chileans, just as girls who up and move to the literal end of the world probably aren't too typical! We're perhaps a little more adventurous and open-minded than someone who's never left home and has no intention of starting now. But you're right that just because our boyfriends/husbands are amazing doesn't mean that they're somehow un-Chilean - it's just that we've gotten to know them.
Honestly, I think worse than the Chileans who show up late/push/cut in line are the gringos who, after living in Chile for a while, do the same thing because they can get away with it. I mean ok, I'm not quite as punctual as I used to be, but there are times when it just seems pretty clear that an expat is doing something he or she knows is "wrong" just because he/she can get away with it.
I LOVED this post Kyle, because you put into words exactly how I feel about Sanitaguinos but couldn't quite express. It was like this big enigma, I like my Santiaguino friends, but I don't like Santiaguinos, how can this be? (I'm trying to be a little more sensitive about the whole Santaigo isn't Chile deal...)But anyway, now I get it. Thanks for reading my mind and sorting it all out ;)
Abby, that's what I'm hear for...to read your mind and then explain it all via blog. :P
There are one or two small places in Vina and in Patronato the Asian food stores stock the essentials (at ridiculous prices though). We made a thai yellow curry with reineta last night (you can get real thai curry paste in Lider), so ethnic food is available...just about...after more than 5 years in south america, I've learnt to take what i can get :)
Reading your blog I have noticed that some Chileans take offense when confronted with the stark reality: Chile is shit.
Having said that, Chile is not the only shitty country of the world. I couldn't agree more with the great contemporary thinker and philospher Noel Gallagher (warning: strong language):
"I miss watching the football, I miss getting a decent cup of tea. That's about it, other than that I don't miss anything."
"You know England is not that fucking great, as anybody'll tell you. To live in England is a fucking shithole, to be honest. Well, look at it, fucking dump!"
"People have this romantic image of England, you know. London is a fucking dump. It's full of crime, it's full of fucking tourists. It's traffic, it's pollution. I don't even know why I live here to be honest." (see here)
Just replace "England" and "London" with "Chile" and "Santiago", and you'll know what I feel about Chile. Although there are differences: there are less tourists in Chile, and football is crap. I miss the Selección matches and la UC. There's nothing special about it. One italian girl I met a few weeks ago was telling me how much she loves Neruda and Isabel Allende, she even described Chile as the country with the most beautiful literature of the world. OK, I just hope she never visits Chile.
But other than that, I agree with what people are saying about Santiaguinos being kinda rude.
Psicométodos though got one thing wrong. Are French people rude? No way Jose. If anything, they're irritatingly polite. So I think there's a reason for the Santiago rudeness, and it's because in Chile (in Santiago, whatever) we perceive 'fake' as something really bad. It's preferable to be rude than --god forbid-- fake. So nobody cares really if you're pushed. It goes withoout saying that nobody meant to push you or cause physical harm to you. So what's the point in apologising? If you don't mean it, then don't do it. If I can, I would. But most likely I wouldn't realise.
I say that because I don't feel offended when people push me to get on the Metro train (imagine the Tokyo metro). We're all equally rushed and stressed out. You're gonna get pushed. The attitude is "f** it, live with it". Actually, it's been the same ever since I was going to school, so I really think nothing of it.
And by the way, Gabriel Monty, well I'm sorry I wasn't born in a wonderful place where I could see the beautiful green praire every morning and walk happily to school every day, smiling and playing sorrounded by nature. You hate Santiago 'mainly for its people'? You've got to be flippin' joking, but if you mean it then I recommend you seek help.
I remember once I went to buy the newspaper in France. "Good morning monsieur", "it's €1,50 monsiuer", "bon journée monsieur, merci". All that just to get the paper. Of course her face was saying something different. But you see my point. Once to see a football match the guard checking tickets was saying 'bon match' to people. They wish you a good day for everything. They thank you more than twice when buying anything. But you can't tell 'tu' to people, you use 'vous' (usted). So I told my girlfriend that it was a bit much. It was not politeness anymore, it was the ultimate fake. So whoever said the French are rude is someone who is being economical with the truth (to put it mildly). They're uptight and excessively polite.
Rancagua is round the corner from Santiago. I would rather live in Beirut or Bagdad than Rancagua. Valparaíso is nice, granted. But the rest? What region is Gabriel from?
Polite country? Try Canada, people is truly very nice in Canada.
Santiaguinos are indeed a rude bunch of suckers. Few years ago I was there for a short business trip, around noon I felt hungry and enter a small restaurant. The girl behind the counter was placking her eye-brows! And she laughed at me for wanted a sandwich at 12:00...
Kyle the stat you gave about the chance of getting shot in different countries was really interesting!! Once I started thinking about what you said, it made sense when comparing population stats. Anyways, I would have never guessed but I'm glad you mentioned it.
Also, somebody wrote they were scared of being chopped up in the US never to be heard from again...I definitely feel that way too!
In Chile I was worried that I might get robbed or die in a micro accident. In the US there are crazy ass stories of rapes, kidnappings, torturing and murders in gruesome and disgusting ways.
I am pretty sure I had a false sense of security in Chile/South America in general because nothing even remotely scary happened to me, but do they just not show the nasty crimes in the news do they not exist????
@Carlos - Wow. I'm gonna have a field day responding to you! BTW, it's Morty, not Monty. My middle name is Mortimer.
This may be a good separate blog topic on its own; Kyle, take note!
I find it so very interesting that Chileans, mostly of the middle and upper classes LOVE to complain about how bad off Chile is. ("Chile is shit.")
I think one would be driven to say that solely out of living in Santiago, but I'm biased. ;-)
But in reality, Chile's health care (regardless of long lines) is second only to Cuba in Latin America. From personal experience and many years of traveling from Arica to Punta Arenas, I've NEVER seen poverty in Chile as exists in Bolivia or Mexico. Education could be much better (and free) but Chile's literacy rate is 96%; not bad for a country with a tax on books imposed by a dictatorship.
I suppose it comes from having a lack of perspective and the fact that many Chileans of those social classes dream of, idealize, and pursue the task of leaving Chile to go to Europe or the US. Everything is relative, of course, but really, Chile's not that bad off. And if it were so bad, why DO so many tourists come here from all over Europe and the US?
Just as an aside, I wouldn't place any relevance whatsoever in labeling Noel Gallagher a great thinker or philosopher. An arrogant rock star who has asserted that his band Oasis is "without a shadow of a doubt" more important than God, really seems to contradict the very meaning of "thinker."
In any case and returning to Kyle's topic, I believe Carlos demonstrates through his very examples why some Santiaguinos can incite such contempt. French aren't the only ones who say "Have a good day" or "thank you" after any small action. Perhaps, Carlos, you think politeness IS fake. The very notion of polite differs from culture to culture. In Texas, where I grew up, from the gas station attendant to the CEO of an oil corporation will greet you with a "Howdy!" or a "G'mornin'!"
In Mexico City, people who ride in the Volkswagon "hippie buses" that are used as public transportation, greet each and every passenger who gets on. One hops on and is invariably met by a small chorus of "Buenos dias!" or "Buenas tardes!" I'd rather have that over the stone-faced glare that most Santiaguinos shoot your way in public.
And no, Carlos, I didn't grow up in some green-fielded mountain pasture, raising dairy cows and frollicking like Heidi in a dress. But THAT attitude towards región is part of what drives me up the wall about Santiaguinos. Have YOU ever lived outside of Santiago? And trips to Viña/Valpo don't count,'cos those are just weekend getaways for Santiaguinos. It's typical stereotyping to think that región means nature and "backward" uneducated people and "lack" of civilization (like malls, discoteques and cafes con piernas?).
I lived for 2 years in Chilean Patagonia and was born in Valdivia. I have witnessed the most humble acts of kindness when living with farmers on remote islands of Chiloé. I have been warmed by the spirit of partaking in complex yerba mate drinking ceremonies with baqueanos (Chilean gauchos). I have been invited by pescadores artesanales in Valparaíso to go out on high seas and accompany them... and they even gave me free fish afterwards!
My point is that Santiaguinos are very much like any creature of the big cities of the world: rude, cold-shouldered, fast-paced, and often ignorant of the intricate and beautiful ways of life outside the big city. Santiaguinos differ in that they have an arrogance if and when they step outside their beloved city.
Here's an anecdote about Santiaguinos and provincianos. This past summer, my cousin helped organize a Tournament of Wizards for the many clubs of Harry Potter fans nationwide. It was 5 days of activities where groups from as far off as Antofagasta, La Serena, and even Coyhaique met in Rancagua. The teenagers stayed and slept in the classrooms of a local school, where the events were hosted. There were 2 groups present from Santiago... and guess who were the source of the majority of complaints, problems, and conflicts with other groups? Yup. The Santiaguinos.
Carlos writes that he prefers Baghdad or Beirut over Rancagua. Why? I have many war photographer friends who do not share your sentiment for choosing conflict zones, even if it's their job to be there and cover the stories.
He also finishes with the greatest show of disdain for Chile, "Valpo is nice... But the rest?"
Can we be any more condescending to the two-thirds of your fellow countrymen and women?
So I suspect you're just repeating and perpetuating a silly stereotype, and surely you're not speaking from experience.
@Gabriel: The difference between you and me is that you have said horrible things and insulted all santiaguinos, and I'm just not taking any of that. So, you hate Santiago mainly because of the people, but amazingly it’s me the one who incite contempt from others (although I was at the receiving end of your hatred), then you single me out for being posh (I'm not, and if I was posh, what's the big deal?, don't you know that classism works both wayss?) Then you call me I'm an ignorant and I don't know the 'beautiful ways of life outside the big city', and -shockingly- it's me the condescending part here.
So this is the way it works: everybody can trash the santiaguinos, and we're suppose to nod.
Let me tell you one thing. I believe Santiago is a shithole. I mean there are things I like, the Bellas Artes museum, the Parque Forestal, some of the architecture, some parts are really nice no sane person can deny it. But I still find there's not enough culture, I'd like more Cine Normandies, more cafés La Rosa, and more Mosqueto streets, more Bellavistas, that sort of thing.
Now, I really don't know if I should laugh or what, but one of the biggest stereotypes of the provincianos (don't take is as an offense please, it's just a word and not necessarily a derogative one) is that they are naive. When I referred to Noel Gallagher as a great philosopher and thinker I was obviously being sarcastic. The guy has admitted himself to never read books. He's not articulate. He's known for being an arrogant git. How can you not get it!? And let's not go into the Bagdad/Beirut comparison with Rancagua, seriously, you don't understand sarcasm? Tip: when you come to horrible rude and polluted Santiago, please don't give money to anyone claiming he owns the Santa Lucía. He's just trying to steal your money. He's not the owner so he can't sell it to you. Well, it is a very old joke, but looks like I you need this piece of advice.
Most people have a skewed views of Santiago just cause they watch the news and everything is robbery, violence, murders and crime. People believe that Santiaguinos are either posh or yobs, as if there was nothing in between. I think you’re victim of all these sensationalist news programmes so your opinions have really little value.
My main criticism against Santiago is that it's just not cosmopolitan enough. And there are reasons why I don’t like it that much. You surely know the song 'Por qué no te vas' by Los Prisioneros. Well, I am one of those that 'dream of New York and Europe, I complain about our culture and our people, and I complain that the indians don't appreciate art', and even more annoyingly: 'I'm always talking about the movies in the Normandie'.
In the provinces, other than binge-drinking, I fail to see what's so appealing. I went to Punta Arenas, it was cold and windy, ugly. No idea what they find so beautiful in Patagonia. In the rest of the country I'm sure there are as many drunks and wife-beaters as in Santiago, so don’t make me believe in this dichotomy (I like big words) of Santiago=ugly vs Province=innocence and beauty.
About Valparaíso, well let me tell you I traveled quite a bit with my girlfriend and we used the French Tourist guide, the world famous Routard. Do me a favour and read it, you'll see what I mean. As a country, Chile is fucking shit. There's very little to see compared to the wonders of Inca culture in Peru or Bolivia, or the amazing natural wonders of Brazil, or the real beauty of Buenos Aires, among other fantastic attractions and all other countries (two French friends traveled all around Latin America, Chile included, they were unimpressed and they just loved Ecuador). Cities like Rancagua, Talca or Antofagasta weren't even mentioned in the guide. Restaurants in most places in Chile are rubbish. Food is disgusting, Chileans simply lack of creativity to cook. Chileans came up with ten dishes at the most: salmon with some non-descript salad, barbecued beef and potatoes, seafood (that most Chileans don't even eat) and that's it. Seriously, eating in Chile is a disaster. Nobody would ever complain over bad Peruvian food, but the arrogant chileans think that Peru is crap, although that country has an extraordinary cuisine. Chileans love when foreigners tell them their piece of shit is a great country but to be perfectly honest, and being myself Chilean, I can testify that the reality is that Chile is a shitty country. The landscape is not even nice: the south is rainy, grey and cold, and now mostly devastated, and the north is just plain ugly desert. The beach is cold and filthy, you're lucky if you get 3 sunny days in a row, and the girls are ugly and wouldn't even sunbathe in topless (becasue the chileans, who are notoriously ugly apart from chauvinist, normally act as if they have never seen a woman).
But the worse part is the people, metropolitan and provincial. People are not even honest. Just cause the saw me with a foreign woman they assume is OK for us to be ripped off. And because my girlfriend doesn't speak much Spanish, they would even think that yours truly was foreign. I was treated like shit. In some places my gf had to pay more, isn’t that discrimination? Service everywhere is appalling. In Puerto Montt one guy was really nice to us during a tour. At one point he told me that nobody speaks to the Peruvians cause they’re filthy. So much for yourself drinking mate with the nice baqueanos.
Your attitude towards Valparaíso is downright idiotic. It is, if anything, the only interesting place. Don’t be fooled into thinking it is extraordinary, because it’s not, it is muck. But they made it colourful, and it’s full of character. There’s no place like Valparaíso anywhere in the world. No chance in hell I would live there, but it is amazing in its own way.
Don't get me wrong. I don't praise Santiago. I have fantastic memories about the city and some things are great. I have been happy in Santiago. But in general is crap, like the rest of the country, so I pretty much agree with Noel Gallagher with his view of his own country.
Chile is a dusty shithole, with no culture, few museums, food is abominable and the weather is either too hot or too cold. Chileans are narrow-minded philistine chauvinist arseholes.
It can all change, and I’m sure it will. But we can only improve our own condition once we assume the reality. Any chance of reform depends on people’s ability to recognize that in 200 years of history we have built a crappy country. We're just doing harm to ourselves if we keep comparing with Cuba and the likes.
(and for the Scottish readers, yes I am including scotland as part of england because you are so rude to the english(only the males tho' - the scottish females are perfectly polite)
England, or Britain actually, was in the past a world power and ruled the world. Today, if my dog is not in the backyard the British may rule my backyard. Today they rule nothing and it shows. It's a country with a long and important history, in that sense only rivaled by France.
Chile for long has been a backward place, we haven't given anything remarkable to the world, apart from some notable writers and a few artists, but nothing that has happened in Chile has had any impact anywhere. So I cannot really compare both.
Something I found really really impressive was the British Museum. Needless to say, some of the world heritage is safely stored there, and free access to the public. But equally nice was the museums I saw in Manchester or Liverpool, with all the history of the working class during the 19th century and the Industrial Revolution, stuff like that.
I just don't see anything interesting in the rest of Chile. The hiking trails in Patagonia are great, but mainly Chile's attractions are not man made, they are simply natural wonders, and not always that impressive as the Chileans think.
Perhaps I'm biased. History is one of my hobbies, so I tend to like countries with history. Chile is a newish country, and I think it is stupid the way chileans show contempt for their own history. So to sum up, England (Britain) has given great scientits, thinkers, musicians and has influenced and even shaped the world. And I see they want to preserve history, and Chile doesn't have any of that.
About similarities, there's something miserable about Chileans and British, I mean about the way they live. Both share a negative outlook on life.
In France I went to a rock concert people were queing to order a drink. People go back home quietly. In Britan and in Chile the alcohol-fueled culture and binge drinking is revolting. Fights after a night out are frightening, and everywhere. I don't know exactly what it is but looks like both people can't have fun unless they get pissed. I have seen women puking in the street and falling on their own pool of sick. We celebrate 18th of September in Chile the same way, and we're so pathetic we think it is great. I have been to so many St Patrick's celebrations and I'm done with them.
The food in England is a disgrace, but the international restaurants are fantastic, especially Indian. In Chile we have a bbq, which is no rocket science. And that's about it. Some restaurants now are good and less pricey, but unfortunately eating out is still expensive for the majority of people. In provinces, no offense, there's nothing. While in England you still find great places out of London, and obviously because it's a country with higher disposable income. No need to explain about eating in France, which is something that changed me forever. And I don't mean posh Michelin-starred restaurants, I mean a small bistrot anywhere in France can give you fucking great food, and I mean it could be just the ultimate fucking great culinary experience. In England and Chile you just don't find any of this.
Having a sandwich at your desk in England and Chile is normal. I just realised that we eat like barbarians.
Apart from history, and related to it, I like painting. Somehow, in Chile you have to be very careful to whom you mention this otherwise you come across as an arrogant pretentious twat. And the same with the British. There's a lot of inbelievably idotic people, the sort of tabloid readers. There's a strong and pervasive celebrity culture, and in Chile is a new trend and is getting stronger.
Oh, and new, recent similarity now: cops are equally brutal.
(that was a long answer, I got carried away!)
I'm sorry but this absolutely had me in stitches!Good posts!
I know I keep comparing countries to France but I find it useful for comparison. For me is the second country I know best.
The binge-drinking in Chile is, on top of it, related to complete drink and drive irresponsibility. You tell Chileans about a designated driver and things like that and they laugh.
@Psycho-metódos: The difference is that I'm intelligent enough to tell if a given individual is an idiot or not, and I don't take it from there to call everyone else an idiot in that specific country. Even though the French have no problems with the Spanish or any other country, if I see one insulting them, I won't be so silly to think that all people are like that. Not even the majority. What you're doing is known as 'generalisation', to draw a conclusion from specific cases for more general cases. But in your case your generalisation is flawed, and so it is a hideous generalisation.
I can say that Chileans are football-crazed people because I have met many football-crazed people. That's alright. I have met many, many Chileans who think the Peruvians are like the untouchables, so I can say that most Chileans still don't know how to treat people from other countries and are usually driven by stereotypes, and they are a fairly racist country. This is a correct generalisation.
Yes I was speaking from my own experience, and so because generally I'm reasonably polite to people I have not been mistreated. Try and understand this.
Ask yourself why you found so many rude and ignorant people. Maybe cause you drove them up the wall? Perhaps you're like one of those Chileans who get all homesick and annoyed because they can't eat empanadas and can't drink pisco. And no, there's no cazuela either. And by the way, don't put mayonaise on that weón.
Certainly, the French are not overtly welcoming, they are not warm people, they don't make friends easily. But I really think you're wrong, and unfair. You're confusing the Gallic froideur with racism. You're insulting a lot of people with such statements.
In the following I'm only talking about urban Chileans...
They are very different from Americans. I'm more likely to strike up a conversation with a random American than with a random Chilean. --Except for Chilean jotes who always want to strike up a convo--. I also trust random gringos more than I trust random Chileans.
I think the flipside is that Americans are really friendly with each other, but sometimes I feel groups of Americans lack the "acogedor-ness" of smaller Chilean groups. I can't explain it but it's an impression I get. So on a societal level, Americans are easier to hang out with, but on a smaller group level, I really like to hang with both groups, but I absolutely love how I feel "acogida" by the Chileans, and not just because I'm a gringa. They do it with each other too.
I've loved the convo between Carlos and Psicometodos and Gabriel.
I've often been annoyed by people who just generally say "Chile is 10 years behind." Ten years behind what? So first of all they aren't even considering the rest of the world when they say this. As if Europe and the States were the only other parts of planet Earth.
In some cases, okay, it might be true that Chile is ten years behind Europe/the USA, because sometimes they implement something in Chile that has already been in the States or Europe for awhile. Like a sweet highway. Chilean infrastructure is getting better all the time... In 1997 there was a two lane highway between Santiago and Valpo and it was full of potholes. Now they have quite the highway to replace it. So that could be an example of "having been behind." But I shy away from using this expression. I guess the education here could be better...like in the States and Europe...so that's an instance when you could compare. But Chile faces different challenges, so I think its really unfair to put Chile down as a country (as many do, tantos chilenos como ajuerinos) always comparing it to Europe and the States. It's unrealistic, idealistic and perfectionist.
But reading Carlos's comments, I really got that Carlos doesn't like Chile. That's clear. He just doesn't like the country. And there are many Chileans who just don't like their country. They prefer other places. And I find that totally valid. By the way Carlos, you didn't mention Rapa Nui. What are your thoughts on this island? hehe.
The post and comments are great. What a fun piece to read.
Psycho-métodos: you're comments are so vile, you don't deserve a reply.
I can only say that homopohobia is an extended problem in Chile. This fanaticism, this idiocy is a very Chilean thing.
A university professor once told me, literally, 'London is such a disgusting place, you can see men kissing on the streets'. Bigotry and intolerance unfortunately are everywhere.
Well, these are the Chileans. These are my country fellows, my compatriots.
At a societal level, Chile is not an inclusive place. It is no country for the ones who want to be creative, or different, or want to pursue their own lifestyle. It's no place to say 'I beg to differ'.
And at an individual level, there are great people, but there are great people in many countries. There are unfortunately too many bigots in Chile, more than in other places. I mean the ratio of clever people to bigots in Chile is lower than in more enlightened countries.
I don't care about your ad hominem remarks. I'm not taking any of them.
but overall on the chileans as a group vs. chileans on an individual level... well i wish that were the magic answer to making everything seem better! and in theory i'd like to agree... but that hasn't been my experience, and many of the chileans i have come to know on a personal, connected level and in small group situations haven't seemed much different from the line-budding, sidewalk pushing, often rude disconocido on the street. I love the theory and have heard many people say similar things but unfortunately you'd catch me in a lie just trying to please chilean readers if i were to actually agree that it's all better on a personal level.
(i don't think it matters that im not in santiago, i actually think that works in favor of my statement as half of everybody claim "you've gotta get out of santiago and it will all be different". or perhaps i'm just not far enough)
I have lived in France for 7 years and I have smiled at some of the things that have been said by Carlos and Psicometodos and Anonymous (among the others) because they are so true, but I have also shaken my head at each one of them at some point during this whole conversation because I have lived through anecdotes that are exactly the opposite of what they claim.
I have lived in Mexico City and I have been to Santiago and I am partly American.
So how does this shape my perception of these countries or any other for that matter?
It doesn't.
I can't.
I wouldn't dare.
Because, the world is far too diverse, far too wide, far too different to be able to conveniently be tagged and neatly labeled.
When we say "The French.... " what French are we talking about? The old generation that lived through WWII? The "Prof generation" that lived through May 68? The De Gaulle generation? The Miterrand generation? The Bronzés generation? I ask because each of these generations will present a picture of "The French" that is completely different... Or then, are we talking about the French that have visited the Louvre and and read Jaurès and eat at Bistrots.... if so, are we sure these are the REAL french?
Perhaps they are, because they are the French that we have MET while we have lived in France... perhaps they aren't because they may not represent the majority of the french of our times anymore... perhaps they wont be because a new generation is coming behind us that might change that....
So is it possible that the same thing could happen in Chile? Or in Mexico?
That the perceptions we each have a country and its people are based solely on the people and experiences we've had while being in that place, be it by having grown up there, by living there as an expat, or by simply having travelled through it?
I guess most of you will agree this is so, it sounds pretty logic to me in any case.
What's more complicated though is figuring out what happens while we're NOT there.
Because 7 years of living in France means 7 years of NO LONGER living in Mexico. But IT DOESN'T mean that Mexico has not changed in 7 years.
So should I still be able to claim that I can tell you what the Mexicans would do in such and such situation? Would I still be able to proclaim with authority that Mexicans are/do/make/feel/think.... etc?
As I said before, I can't... I wont... I don't dare.
Fned.
Fned, you make a good point that culture changes when we are out of our own culture, and we aren't as in touch with it as we would be if we were still living there. At least that's what I think you were saying. And that personal experiences are very subjective and limited to a small period in history.
But if we can't make generalizations about nations and their cultures (which perhaps we can't), then does culture exist?
I've studied travel writing and read a particularly interesting theoretical book written by Siobhan Shilton, Charles Forsdick and Feroza Basu. I believe it was Shilton who said that we tend to see culture as a monolithic, autonomous entity when it really isn't. Her suggestion is that culture is like a mosaic, having its bigger characteristics/or generalizations but that the idea of "culture" also includes its differences and variations.
She also goes on to state that when we begin to question the concepts of culture and identity, both become unstable.
I do believe in being careful when generalizing about culture, but I do it because I think you can. I agree with Kyle on her generalization, at least with regards to Chilean urbanites. They aren't all rude, but I've had lots of experiences with rudeness in Santiago especially. And I don't think it's totally bad either. As someone else said, at least its honest. hahaha. But I do think there's a point where it goes to far. But whatever. In the end, I choose where I live.
i was just pointing it out that because i found myself thinking "oh yeah I agree with that point...maybe i guess i do agree more with this theory than i thought" until i would realize that "that point" wasn't really an important factor in the theory.
Fned, really interesting points. All of this is swirling around in my mind and making me think about things...we'll see when/if a post of my own comes of it. Thanks for the inspiration, guys!
I actually wrote a post about it a few months ago:
http://www.livinginloja.com/2008/12/being-polite.html
I definitely met unkind people in Chile - R's sister in law being numero uno - as I did in China and as I have here (throughout my life) in good old Inglaterra. From my experience it's not so much that individuals are nicer than the society composed of them (this rather reminds me of the 'black people are bad except my mate' theme that was so prevalent in England in my teenage years) simply that, on so many levels, Chile is a bloody impossibly tough country for foreigners (well UK/US ones anyway) to live in. China was a doddle in comparison and who'd've imagined that? Just look at the blogs on Chile (mine, yours and many others) that can run and run and run talking about if the Chileans are this or that or not. I never felt like writing more than a couple of posts like that on the Chinese. It seems like living in Chile is so irritating to some foreigners (me as number 1 on the list) in one form or another that it takes over being able to get on with your normal life.
Oh and on the subject of Chilean husbands, I've recently come to realise that R is Chilean to the core (of course) and that it's only because he always replied to my emails promptly, unlike almost any other Chilean, and agreed to do things my way (rather than the Chilean way) that made me think otherwise. In fact, him being that contradictory character of a 'macho but wife-obeying' Chilean husband has simply been him being his most Chilean all along. Which I'm very glad of....