Kyle Hepp - Latest Comments in Chileans On an Individual Level Vs. Chilean Society

Re: Chileans On an Individual Level Vs. Chilean Society

globalgal — Mon, 20 Apr 2009 11:59:00 -0000

I've just been blog surfing and came across this great post and amazing comment section. My blog has never seen more than 15 comments so I'm quite impressed! I'm an American expat living in China. My husband is from Spain. (Yes, that rude country! The funny thing is the Spanish will all laugh & agree with the rude title. They could care less. I personally see some things they do as rude and others not.) I think that this idea of individual actions vs. societal actions is universal to all cultures. I could rewrite your post substituting Chinese and it would most definitely be valid!

Re: Chileans On an Individual Level Vs. Chilean Society

Raybelles — Fri, 17 Apr 2009 08:18:00 -0000

Oh I wish I had time to read all these comments.

I definitely met unkind people in Chile - R's sister in law being numero uno - as I did in China and as I have here (throughout my life) in good old Inglaterra. From my experience it's not so much that individuals are nicer than the society composed of them (this rather reminds me of the 'black people are bad except my mate' theme that was so prevalent in England in my teenage years) simply that, on so many levels, Chile is a bloody impossibly tough country for foreigners (well UK/US ones anyway) to live in. China was a doddle in comparison and who'd've imagined that? Just look at the blogs on Chile (mine, yours and many others) that can run and run and run talking about if the Chileans are this or that or not. I never felt like writing more than a couple of posts like that on the Chinese. It seems like living in Chile is so irritating to some foreigners (me as number 1 on the list) in one form or another that it takes over being able to get on with your normal life.

Oh and on the subject of Chilean husbands, I've recently come to realise that R is Chilean to the core (of course) and that it's only because he always replied to my emails promptly, unlike almost any other Chilean, and agreed to do things my way (rather than the Chilean way) that made me think otherwise. In fact, him being that contradictory character of a 'macho but wife-obeying' Chilean husband has simply been him being his most Chilean all along. Which I'm very glad of....

Re: Chileans On an Individual Level Vs. Chilean Society

Lori — Thu, 16 Apr 2009 13:11:00 -0000

Hi, I found your post interesting because here in Ecuador I face a similar situation.

I actually wrote a post about it a few months ago:

http://www.livinginloja.com...

Re: Chileans On an Individual Level Vs. Chilean Society

Emily — Tue, 14 Apr 2009 13:35:00 -0000

Ding, ding, ding! Psicometodos wins the award for "best statement of the obvious" as well as "best reading comprehension". Kyle has said repeatedly that she will leave soon to go on a trip around the world - are you just reminding us of that? Or are you trying to suggest that it in some way makes her observations less valid? I don't really understand the point of your comment.

Fned, really interesting points. All of this is swirling around in my mind and making me think about things...we'll see when/if a post of my own comes of it. Thanks for the inspiration, guys!

Re: Chileans On an Individual Level Vs. Chilean Society

lydia — Mon, 13 Apr 2009 16:03:00 -0000

for what its worth, my comment was not an attack on kyle's writing, simply pointing out that the broad range of factors involved, and examples and anecdotes in the comments that from the beginning it seemed people were arguing points that, in the end, may or may not have anything to do with the individual vs. collective thing (the essence of the post) and that's ok, but-
i was just pointing it out that because i found myself thinking "oh yeah I agree with that point...maybe i guess i do agree more with this theory than i thought" until i would realize that "that point" wasn't really an important factor in the theory.

Re: Chileans On an Individual Level Vs. Chilean Society

Maeskizzle — Mon, 13 Apr 2009 12:56:00 -0000

Lydia, Kyle has picked a topic that is hard to write about, and probably hasn't been written about much. That's partly why its hard to do. It's also a generalization, and only a generalization, not a physical law like gravity. Generalizations always have exceptions.

Fned, you make a good point that culture changes when we are out of our own culture, and we aren't as in touch with it as we would be if we were still living there. At least that's what I think you were saying. And that personal experiences are very subjective and limited to a small period in history.

But if we can't make generalizations about nations and their cultures (which perhaps we can't), then does culture exist?

I've studied travel writing and read a particularly interesting theoretical book written by Siobhan Shilton, Charles Forsdick and Feroza Basu. I believe it was Shilton who said that we tend to see culture as a monolithic, autonomous entity when it really isn't. Her suggestion is that culture is like a mosaic, having its bigger characteristics/or generalizations but that the idea of "culture" also includes its differences and variations.

She also goes on to state that when we begin to question the concepts of culture and identity, both become unstable.

I do believe in being careful when generalizing about culture, but I do it because I think you can. I agree with Kyle on her generalization, at least with regards to Chilean urbanites. They aren't all rude, but I've had lots of experiences with rudeness in Santiago especially. And I don't think it's totally bad either. As someone else said, at least its honest. hahaha. But I do think there's a point where it goes to far. But whatever. In the end, I choose where I live.

Re: Chileans On an Individual Level Vs. Chilean Society

Fned — Mon, 13 Apr 2009 11:54:00 -0000

What's funny is that every one seems to be commenting based on their own experience (they're the first ones to say it!) and I agree... in a way it rejoins what Kyle said in her initial post: it's easy to generalize but it's not exactly fair to do so because there is no norm.

I have lived in France for 7 years and I have smiled at some of the things that have been said by Carlos and Psicometodos and Anonymous (among the others) because they are so true, but I have also shaken my head at each one of them at some point during this whole conversation because I have lived through anecdotes that are exactly the opposite of what they claim.

I have lived in Mexico City and I have been to Santiago and I am partly American.

So how does this shape my perception of these countries or any other for that matter?

It doesn't.

I can't.

I wouldn't dare.

Because, the world is far too diverse, far too wide, far too different to be able to conveniently be tagged and neatly labeled.

When we say "The French.... " what French are we talking about? The old generation that lived through WWII? The "Prof generation" that lived through May 68? The De Gaulle generation? The Miterrand generation? The Bronzés generation? I ask because each of these generations will present a picture of "The French" that is completely different... Or then, are we talking about the French that have visited the Louvre and and read Jaurès and eat at Bistrots.... if so, are we sure these are the REAL french?

Perhaps they are, because they are the French that we have MET while we have lived in France... perhaps they aren't because they may not represent the majority of the french of our times anymore... perhaps they wont be because a new generation is coming behind us that might change that....

So is it possible that the same thing could happen in Chile? Or in Mexico?

That the perceptions we each have a country and its people are based solely on the people and experiences we've had while being in that place, be it by having grown up there, by living there as an expat, or by simply having travelled through it?

I guess most of you will agree this is so, it sounds pretty logic to me in any case.

What's more complicated though is figuring out what happens while we're NOT there.

Because 7 years of living in France means 7 years of NO LONGER living in Mexico. But IT DOESN'T mean that Mexico has not changed in 7 years.

So should I still be able to claim that I can tell you what the Mexicans would do in such and such situation? Would I still be able to proclaim with authority that Mexicans are/do/make/feel/think.... etc?

As I said before, I can't... I wont... I don't dare.

Fned.

Re: Chileans On an Individual Level Vs. Chilean Society

lydia — Mon, 13 Apr 2009 01:30:00 -0000

Kyle, I think unfortunately in your post you've kinda wound a couple different issues into one where its hard to agree or disagree with one element wihtout knowing how much influence that has on the issue as a whole.... especially since half the comments flung off on wild tangents I have no idea where I'm at now.

but overall on the chileans as a group vs. chileans on an individual level... well i wish that were the magic answer to making everything seem better! and in theory i'd like to agree... but that hasn't been my experience, and many of the chileans i have come to know on a personal, connected level and in small group situations haven't seemed much different from the line-budding, sidewalk pushing, often rude disconocido on the street. I love the theory and have heard many people say similar things but unfortunately you'd catch me in a lie just trying to please chilean readers if i were to actually agree that it's all better on a personal level.

(i don't think it matters that im not in santiago, i actually think that works in favor of my statement as half of everybody claim "you've gotta get out of santiago and it will all be different". or perhaps i'm just not far enough)

Re: Chileans On an Individual Level Vs. Chilean Society

Anonymous — Sun, 12 Apr 2009 20:14:00 -0000

Psychomanotopssos (who doesnt show its profile), I am afraid you are the coward and you are obviously a fucknut with 'issues' so I can not converse with you any more, go and try and argue with someone else you racist homophobic fascist.

Re: Chileans On an Individual Level Vs. Chilean Society

Carlos — Sun, 12 Apr 2009 18:02:00 -0000

Maeskizzle: I haven't been to Easter Island (Rapa Nui) and I really doub't I'll go there. The natives devastated their own island, never created a culture, and if they did, they can't even tell how come they invented the moais statues. I believe the Anakena beach there is bad. So to be perfectly honest, I won't go.

Psycho-métodos: you're comments are so vile, you don't deserve a reply.

I can only say that homopohobia is an extended problem in Chile. This fanaticism, this idiocy is a very Chilean thing.

A university professor once told me, literally, 'London is such a disgusting place, you can see men kissing on the streets'. Bigotry and intolerance unfortunately are everywhere.

Well, these are the Chileans. These are my country fellows, my compatriots.

At a societal level, Chile is not an inclusive place. It is no country for the ones who want to be creative, or different, or want to pursue their own lifestyle. It's no place to say 'I beg to differ'.

And at an individual level, there are great people, but there are great people in many countries. There are unfortunately too many bigots in Chile, more than in other places. I mean the ratio of clever people to bigots in Chile is lower than in more enlightened countries.

I don't care about your ad hominem remarks. I'm not taking any of them.

Re: Chileans On an Individual Level Vs. Chilean Society

Anonymous — Sun, 12 Apr 2009 17:01:00 -0000

@Psicomentodos Re-read your comments and you will see that you are not only a racist, but a homophobic fascist who fails to see any of his own faults. This is a discussion about Chile and different cultures and not a place for insults.

Re: Chileans On an Individual Level Vs. Chilean Society

Maeskizzle — Sun, 12 Apr 2009 13:07:00 -0000

Good topic Kyle. I totally agree with the difference between the Chilean city people "todos juntos", and Chileans city people on an individual level-and I think you can add on the level of smaller groups.

In the following I'm only talking about urban Chileans...

They are very different from Americans. I'm more likely to strike up a conversation with a random American than with a random Chilean. --Except for Chilean jotes who always want to strike up a convo--. I also trust random gringos more than I trust random Chileans.

I think the flipside is that Americans are really friendly with each other, but sometimes I feel groups of Americans lack the "acogedor-ness" of smaller Chilean groups. I can't explain it but it's an impression I get. So on a societal level, Americans are easier to hang out with, but on a smaller group level, I really like to hang with both groups, but I absolutely love how I feel "acogida" by the Chileans, and not just because I'm a gringa. They do it with each other too.

I've loved the convo between Carlos and Psicometodos and Gabriel.

I've often been annoyed by people who just generally say "Chile is 10 years behind." Ten years behind what? So first of all they aren't even considering the rest of the world when they say this. As if Europe and the States were the only other parts of planet Earth.

In some cases, okay, it might be true that Chile is ten years behind Europe/the USA, because sometimes they implement something in Chile that has already been in the States or Europe for awhile. Like a sweet highway. Chilean infrastructure is getting better all the time... In 1997 there was a two lane highway between Santiago and Valpo and it was full of potholes. Now they have quite the highway to replace it. So that could be an example of "having been behind." But I shy away from using this expression. I guess the education here could be better...like in the States and Europe...so that's an instance when you could compare. But Chile faces different challenges, so I think its really unfair to put Chile down as a country (as many do, tantos chilenos como ajuerinos) always comparing it to Europe and the States. It's unrealistic, idealistic and perfectionist.

But reading Carlos's comments, I really got that Carlos doesn't like Chile. That's clear. He just doesn't like the country. And there are many Chileans who just don't like their country. They prefer other places. And I find that totally valid. By the way Carlos, you didn't mention Rapa Nui. What are your thoughts on this island? hehe.

The post and comments are great. What a fun piece to read.

Re: Chileans On an Individual Level Vs. Chilean Society

Carlos — Sun, 12 Apr 2009 11:06:00 -0000

Anonymous: the bbq culture is rooted in Chile and being vegeterian is really odd. But then again, Argentina has a similar bbq culture and as far as I can see, most vegeterians have a wide variety of options there. It is a very anglo-saxon thing to be vegeterian, perhaps related to the mad cow disease and foot&mouth outbreakes etc. Of all French friends of my gf, and her family, I've not met a single vegetarian yet.

I know I keep comparing countries to France but I find it useful for comparison. For me is the second country I know best.

The binge-drinking in Chile is, on top of it, related to complete drink and drive irresponsibility. You tell Chileans about a designated driver and things like that and they laugh.

@Psycho-metódos: The difference is that I'm intelligent enough to tell if a given individual is an idiot or not, and I don't take it from there to call everyone else an idiot in that specific country. Even though the French have no problems with the Spanish or any other country, if I see one insulting them, I won't be so silly to think that all people are like that. Not even the majority. What you're doing is known as 'generalisation', to draw a conclusion from specific cases for more general cases. But in your case your generalisation is flawed, and so it is a hideous generalisation.

I can say that Chileans are football-crazed people because I have met many football-crazed people. That's alright. I have met many, many Chileans who think the Peruvians are like the untouchables, so I can say that most Chileans still don't know how to treat people from other countries and are usually driven by stereotypes, and they are a fairly racist country. This is a correct generalisation.

Yes I was speaking from my own experience, and so because generally I'm reasonably polite to people I have not been mistreated. Try and understand this.

Ask yourself why you found so many rude and ignorant people. Maybe cause you drove them up the wall? Perhaps you're like one of those Chileans who get all homesick and annoyed because they can't eat empanadas and can't drink pisco. And no, there's no cazuela either. And by the way, don't put mayonaise on that weón.

Certainly, the French are not overtly welcoming, they are not warm people, they don't make friends easily. But I really think you're wrong, and unfair. You're confusing the Gallic froideur with racism. You're insulting a lot of people with such statements.

Re: Chileans On an Individual Level Vs. Chilean Society

Girl.Meets.Chile — Sun, 12 Apr 2009 08:42:00 -0000

Gabriel Morty - "And no, Carlos, I didn't grow up in some green-fielded mountain pasture, raising dairy cows and frollicking like Heidi in a dress"

I'm sorry but this absolutely had me in stitches!Good posts!

Re: Chileans On an Individual Level Vs. Chilean Society

Anonymous — Sun, 12 Apr 2009 08:42:00 -0000

Carlos - I was not aware that Chile had the awful binge drinking culture of the UK, I thought it was a British-thing. With the food though, I have to admit it is fantastic to be able to find vegetarian food so easily in England. Other countries just don't have vegetarian marked food. And Psceiementpototnos, I dont think europeans are racist, everybody is capable of being just as racist as each other.

Re: Chileans On an Individual Level Vs. Chilean Society

Carlos — Sat, 11 Apr 2009 21:39:00 -0000

@Anonymous: I met once a Chilean friend of mine and her husband (a Londoner) in Liverpool. We opened a map in the city centre, one guy came out of the blue to give us directions. Same thing with my gf once in Manchester. What I mean is that people in the north are known for being tough but there's something polite and nice about them. In the south of Chile people are kind of nice but are really shy. You can open a map and nobody's gonna help you.

England, or Britain actually, was in the past a world power and ruled the world. Today, if my dog is not in the backyard the British may rule my backyard. Today they rule nothing and it shows. It's a country with a long and important history, in that sense only rivaled by France.

Chile for long has been a backward place, we haven't given anything remarkable to the world, apart from some notable writers and a few artists, but nothing that has happened in Chile has had any impact anywhere. So I cannot really compare both.

Something I found really really impressive was the British Museum. Needless to say, some of the world heritage is safely stored there, and free access to the public. But equally nice was the museums I saw in Manchester or Liverpool, with all the history of the working class during the 19th century and the Industrial Revolution, stuff like that.

I just don't see anything interesting in the rest of Chile. The hiking trails in Patagonia are great, but mainly Chile's attractions are not man made, they are simply natural wonders, and not always that impressive as the Chileans think.

Perhaps I'm biased. History is one of my hobbies, so I tend to like countries with history. Chile is a newish country, and I think it is stupid the way chileans show contempt for their own history. So to sum up, England (Britain) has given great scientits, thinkers, musicians and has influenced and even shaped the world. And I see they want to preserve history, and Chile doesn't have any of that.

About similarities, there's something miserable about Chileans and British, I mean about the way they live. Both share a negative outlook on life.

In France I went to a rock concert people were queing to order a drink. People go back home quietly. In Britan and in Chile the alcohol-fueled culture and binge drinking is revolting. Fights after a night out are frightening, and everywhere. I don't know exactly what it is but looks like both people can't have fun unless they get pissed. I have seen women puking in the street and falling on their own pool of sick. We celebrate 18th of September in Chile the same way, and we're so pathetic we think it is great. I have been to so many St Patrick's celebrations and I'm done with them.

The food in England is a disgrace, but the international restaurants are fantastic, especially Indian. In Chile we have a bbq, which is no rocket science. And that's about it. Some restaurants now are good and less pricey, but unfortunately eating out is still expensive for the majority of people. In provinces, no offense, there's nothing. While in England you still find great places out of London, and obviously because it's a country with higher disposable income. No need to explain about eating in France, which is something that changed me forever. And I don't mean posh Michelin-starred restaurants, I mean a small bistrot anywhere in France can give you fucking great food, and I mean it could be just the ultimate fucking great culinary experience. In England and Chile you just don't find any of this.

Having a sandwich at your desk in England and Chile is normal. I just realised that we eat like barbarians.

Apart from history, and related to it, I like painting. Somehow, in Chile you have to be very careful to whom you mention this otherwise you come across as an arrogant pretentious twat. And the same with the British. There's a lot of inbelievably idotic people, the sort of tabloid readers. There's a strong and pervasive celebrity culture, and in Chile is a new trend and is getting stronger.

Oh, and new, recent similarity now: cops are equally brutal.

(that was a long answer, I got carried away!)

Re: Chileans On an Individual Level Vs. Chilean Society

Anonymous — Sat, 11 Apr 2009 19:58:00 -0000

Carlos - that was kinda like reading about London vs rest of England. How do you compare England to Chile?.

(and for the Scottish readers, yes I am including scotland as part of england because you are so rude to the english(only the males tho' - the scottish females are perfectly polite)

Re: Chileans On an Individual Level Vs. Chilean Society

Gabriel Morty Ortega — Sat, 11 Apr 2009 19:31:00 -0000

I'm with Robespierre! Nuff said!

Re: Chileans On an Individual Level Vs. Chilean Society

Robespierre — Sat, 11 Apr 2009 19:06:00 -0000

Wow! That made my day!

Re: Chileans On an Individual Level Vs. Chilean Society

Carlos — Sat, 11 Apr 2009 18:55:00 -0000

@Psicométodos: I ran a race in France a few years ago. When I went to register, the guy noticed my accent and asked me where I came from. "Oh Chili", he said. He asked me a few questions, just when I was about to hand over the money, he told me "oh no, please, this is on us". He went on to tell me he felt honoured that a Chilean was running, and that I made the race more international. This is just one of many, many examples of people being great to me. Some may have been arseholes, but I can't even remember.

So I suspect you're just repeating and perpetuating a silly stereotype, and surely you're not speaking from experience.

@Gabriel: The difference between you and me is that you have said horrible things and insulted all santiaguinos, and I'm just not taking any of that. So, you hate Santiago mainly because of the people, but amazingly it’s me the one who incite contempt from others (although I was at the receiving end of your hatred), then you single me out for being posh (I'm not, and if I was posh, what's the big deal?, don't you know that classism works both wayss?) Then you call me I'm an ignorant and I don't know the 'beautiful ways of life outside the big city', and -shockingly- it's me the condescending part here.

So this is the way it works: everybody can trash the santiaguinos, and we're suppose to nod.

Let me tell you one thing. I believe Santiago is a shithole. I mean there are things I like, the Bellas Artes museum, the Parque Forestal, some of the architecture, some parts are really nice no sane person can deny it. But I still find there's not enough culture, I'd like more Cine Normandies, more cafés La Rosa, and more Mosqueto streets, more Bellavistas, that sort of thing.

Now, I really don't know if I should laugh or what, but one of the biggest stereotypes of the provincianos (don't take is as an offense please, it's just a word and not necessarily a derogative one) is that they are naive. When I referred to Noel Gallagher as a great philosopher and thinker I was obviously being sarcastic. The guy has admitted himself to never read books. He's not articulate. He's known for being an arrogant git. How can you not get it!? And let's not go into the Bagdad/Beirut comparison with Rancagua, seriously, you don't understand sarcasm? Tip: when you come to horrible rude and polluted Santiago, please don't give money to anyone claiming he owns the Santa Lucía. He's just trying to steal your money. He's not the owner so he can't sell it to you. Well, it is a very old joke, but looks like I you need this piece of advice.

Most people have a skewed views of Santiago just cause they watch the news and everything is robbery, violence, murders and crime. People believe that Santiaguinos are either posh or yobs, as if there was nothing in between. I think you’re victim of all these sensationalist news programmes so your opinions have really little value.

My main criticism against Santiago is that it's just not cosmopolitan enough. And there are reasons why I don’t like it that much. You surely know the song 'Por qué no te vas' by Los Prisioneros. Well, I am one of those that 'dream of New York and Europe, I complain about our culture and our people, and I complain that the indians don't appreciate art', and even more annoyingly: 'I'm always talking about the movies in the Normandie'.

In the provinces, other than binge-drinking, I fail to see what's so appealing. I went to Punta Arenas, it was cold and windy, ugly. No idea what they find so beautiful in Patagonia. In the rest of the country I'm sure there are as many drunks and wife-beaters as in Santiago, so don’t make me believe in this dichotomy (I like big words) of Santiago=ugly vs Province=innocence and beauty.

About Valparaíso, well let me tell you I traveled quite a bit with my girlfriend and we used the French Tourist guide, the world famous Routard. Do me a favour and read it, you'll see what I mean. As a country, Chile is fucking shit. There's very little to see compared to the wonders of Inca culture in Peru or Bolivia, or the amazing natural wonders of Brazil, or the real beauty of Buenos Aires, among other fantastic attractions and all other countries (two French friends traveled all around Latin America, Chile included, they were unimpressed and they just loved Ecuador). Cities like Rancagua, Talca or Antofagasta weren't even mentioned in the guide. Restaurants in most places in Chile are rubbish. Food is disgusting, Chileans simply lack of creativity to cook. Chileans came up with ten dishes at the most: salmon with some non-descript salad, barbecued beef and potatoes, seafood (that most Chileans don't even eat) and that's it. Seriously, eating in Chile is a disaster. Nobody would ever complain over bad Peruvian food, but the arrogant chileans think that Peru is crap, although that country has an extraordinary cuisine. Chileans love when foreigners tell them their piece of shit is a great country but to be perfectly honest, and being myself Chilean, I can testify that the reality is that Chile is a shitty country. The landscape is not even nice: the south is rainy, grey and cold, and now mostly devastated, and the north is just plain ugly desert. The beach is cold and filthy, you're lucky if you get 3 sunny days in a row, and the girls are ugly and wouldn't even sunbathe in topless (becasue the chileans, who are notoriously ugly apart from chauvinist, normally act as if they have never seen a woman).

But the worse part is the people, metropolitan and provincial. People are not even honest. Just cause the saw me with a foreign woman they assume is OK for us to be ripped off. And because my girlfriend doesn't speak much Spanish, they would even think that yours truly was foreign. I was treated like shit. In some places my gf had to pay more, isn’t that discrimination? Service everywhere is appalling. In Puerto Montt one guy was really nice to us during a tour. At one point he told me that nobody speaks to the Peruvians cause they’re filthy. So much for yourself drinking mate with the nice baqueanos.

Your attitude towards Valparaíso is downright idiotic. It is, if anything, the only interesting place. Don’t be fooled into thinking it is extraordinary, because it’s not, it is muck. But they made it colourful, and it’s full of character. There’s no place like Valparaíso anywhere in the world. No chance in hell I would live there, but it is amazing in its own way.

Don't get me wrong. I don't praise Santiago. I have fantastic memories about the city and some things are great. I have been happy in Santiago. But in general is crap, like the rest of the country, so I pretty much agree with Noel Gallagher with his view of his own country.

Chile is a dusty shithole, with no culture, few museums, food is abominable and the weather is either too hot or too cold. Chileans are narrow-minded philistine chauvinist arseholes.

It can all change, and I’m sure it will. But we can only improve our own condition once we assume the reality. Any chance of reform depends on people’s ability to recognize that in 200 years of history we have built a crappy country. We're just doing harm to ourselves if we keep comparing with Cuba and the likes.

Re: Chileans On an Individual Level Vs. Chilean Society

Rita — Fri, 10 Apr 2009 21:47:00 -0000

@ Amanda and Mamacita - do you think the distrust might be a gender thing, not a culture thing? In general I think men are more distrustful and women give people a little more benefit of the doubt but that question could lead to an entirely different blog post I suppose.

Re: Chileans On an Individual Level Vs. Chilean Society

Gabriel Morty Ortega — Fri, 10 Apr 2009 16:59:00 -0000

@Kyle - I partially agree with you about the economic opportunities that are present in Santiago, but I've also met my fair share of gringos living and working just fine in provincia. Granted, the pickings are much slimmer, but gringo tour guides throughout Chile earn at least $500 lucas a month.

@Carlos - Wow. I'm gonna have a field day responding to you! BTW, it's Morty, not Monty. My middle name is Mortimer.

This may be a good separate blog topic on its own; Kyle, take note!

I find it so very interesting that Chileans, mostly of the middle and upper classes LOVE to complain about how bad off Chile is. ("Chile is shit.")

I think one would be driven to say that solely out of living in Santiago, but I'm biased. ;-)

But in reality, Chile's health care (regardless of long lines) is second only to Cuba in Latin America. From personal experience and many years of traveling from Arica to Punta Arenas, I've NEVER seen poverty in Chile as exists in Bolivia or Mexico. Education could be much better (and free) but Chile's literacy rate is 96%; not bad for a country with a tax on books imposed by a dictatorship.

I suppose it comes from having a lack of perspective and the fact that many Chileans of those social classes dream of, idealize, and pursue the task of leaving Chile to go to Europe or the US. Everything is relative, of course, but really, Chile's not that bad off. And if it were so bad, why DO so many tourists come here from all over Europe and the US?

Just as an aside, I wouldn't place any relevance whatsoever in labeling Noel Gallagher a great thinker or philosopher. An arrogant rock star who has asserted that his band Oasis is "without a shadow of a doubt" more important than God, really seems to contradict the very meaning of "thinker."

In any case and returning to Kyle's topic, I believe Carlos demonstrates through his very examples why some Santiaguinos can incite such contempt. French aren't the only ones who say "Have a good day" or "thank you" after any small action. Perhaps, Carlos, you think politeness IS fake. The very notion of polite differs from culture to culture. In Texas, where I grew up, from the gas station attendant to the CEO of an oil corporation will greet you with a "Howdy!" or a "G'mornin'!"

In Mexico City, people who ride in the Volkswagon "hippie buses" that are used as public transportation, greet each and every passenger who gets on. One hops on and is invariably met by a small chorus of "Buenos dias!" or "Buenas tardes!" I'd rather have that over the stone-faced glare that most Santiaguinos shoot your way in public.

And no, Carlos, I didn't grow up in some green-fielded mountain pasture, raising dairy cows and frollicking like Heidi in a dress. But THAT attitude towards región is part of what drives me up the wall about Santiaguinos. Have YOU ever lived outside of Santiago? And trips to Viña/Valpo don't count,'cos those are just weekend getaways for Santiaguinos. It's typical stereotyping to think that región means nature and "backward" uneducated people and "lack" of civilization (like malls, discoteques and cafes con piernas?).

I lived for 2 years in Chilean Patagonia and was born in Valdivia. I have witnessed the most humble acts of kindness when living with farmers on remote islands of Chiloé. I have been warmed by the spirit of partaking in complex yerba mate drinking ceremonies with baqueanos (Chilean gauchos). I have been invited by pescadores artesanales in Valparaíso to go out on high seas and accompany them... and they even gave me free fish afterwards!

My point is that Santiaguinos are very much like any creature of the big cities of the world: rude, cold-shouldered, fast-paced, and often ignorant of the intricate and beautiful ways of life outside the big city. Santiaguinos differ in that they have an arrogance if and when they step outside their beloved city.

Here's an anecdote about Santiaguinos and provincianos. This past summer, my cousin helped organize a Tournament of Wizards for the many clubs of Harry Potter fans nationwide. It was 5 days of activities where groups from as far off as Antofagasta, La Serena, and even Coyhaique met in Rancagua. The teenagers stayed and slept in the classrooms of a local school, where the events were hosted. There were 2 groups present from Santiago... and guess who were the source of the majority of complaints, problems, and conflicts with other groups? Yup. The Santiaguinos.

Carlos writes that he prefers Baghdad or Beirut over Rancagua. Why? I have many war photographer friends who do not share your sentiment for choosing conflict zones, even if it's their job to be there and cover the stories.

He also finishes with the greatest show of disdain for Chile, "Valpo is nice... But the rest?"

Can we be any more condescending to the two-thirds of your fellow countrymen and women?

Re: Chileans On an Individual Level Vs. Chilean Society

Anonymous — Fri, 10 Apr 2009 15:26:00 -0000

I found the Italians and (in certain areas) Portuguese to be very polite, crossing the border between Spain and Portugal is like going from Extreme rudeness to politeness in one step. I have not seen any spaniards in Portugal but maybe they are rude there also.

Re: Chileans On an Individual Level Vs. Chilean Society

Sarita — Fri, 10 Apr 2009 14:52:00 -0000

umm, is this a record for posts?

Kyle the stat you gave about the chance of getting shot in different countries was really interesting!! Once I started thinking about what you said, it made sense when comparing population stats. Anyways, I would have never guessed but I'm glad you mentioned it.

Also, somebody wrote they were scared of being chopped up in the US never to be heard from again...I definitely feel that way too!

In Chile I was worried that I might get robbed or die in a micro accident. In the US there are crazy ass stories of rapes, kidnappings, torturing and murders in gruesome and disgusting ways.

I am pretty sure I had a false sense of security in Chile/South America in general because nothing even remotely scary happened to me, but do they just not show the nasty crimes in the news do they not exist????

Re: Chileans On an Individual Level Vs. Chilean Society

Robespierre — Fri, 10 Apr 2009 12:40:00 -0000

Try China, man! That's really rude people. Someone here said that Spaniards are only rude in Spain. Not true, I've seen Spaniards in Lisbon behaving like a-holes. They resembled Americans in Mexico City, loud and abnoxious.

Polite country? Try Canada, people is truly very nice in Canada.

Santiaguinos are indeed a rude bunch of suckers. Few years ago I was there for a short business trip, around noon I felt hungry and enter a small restaurant. The girl behind the counter was placking her eye-brows! And she laughed at me for wanted a sandwich at 12:00...