Girl, you really have a talent. This post is awsome.... and so on target.
But first an insert here: How cool that you have so many expat friends!!! I've been living in Paris for 6 years and slowly but surely ALL of my expat or french friends have moved abroad (some go back home, others move to another city for the the thrills and some just plain leave)... it gets lonely after a while and makes you want to leave yourself even though you have a great life and love it here.
Anyway, it's so true about how you can never fully explain or predict what people are going to go through when do take the Big expat-jump.
For some it is hard for a while but you enjoy it because you know it's worth it to be with the person you love (and plus you know there will be payback in the end) and that's the way I see my personal experience, for others it is sooooo easy you can't help but envy them (and yeah, money does help but also having incredibly good luck or a "teflon" skin) and then there are those who simply don't get it and you actually feel sad for them.
I'm talkging about those who go live abroad wanting the same life they left behind. The moment a person doesn't understand that when you "go expat" YOU WILL have to adapt, YOU WILL have to indulge, YOU WILL have to accept and YOU WILL have to learn... if you don't get that, don't bother doing it.
Anyway, great great great post.
Bises, Fned.
Fned
· 1 year ago
P.S. I meant "endure" and not "Indulge"...
Fned.
Irantzu
· 1 year ago
Good post... Yes, its not easy to adapt to a any new country, but in some countries its more difficult because its just the opposite of all what you know.
Anyway, you never know... I met latin people in Germany who hated it! I could not believe it... I totally loved Germany (well, maybe not "totally", but 90% of everything was just RIGHT to me)... I know a german woman here in Chile who said she would never come back to live in Germany because she loves how Chile and chilean people are (I know...) So, I guess it depends a little on the country, and a little on the person itself.
Since always I felt a lot of things were wrong in Chile... the "micros", the "lanzas", uf, its a looong list... but after living in Germany I see all even clearer, and I cannot imagine how hard is to understand this "culture" for a foreigner.
I have nothing against my country and my people, whats more, Im sure all comes from a social problem, lack of culture and education... and hopefully soon I will be working a little on that, but god, I hate a lot of situations! And I hate when I hear on the news "Chile is one of the best countries in Southamerica", "Chile is economically growing so much", just BLAH.
There are chilean people who say Chile is cool how it is, they are too lazy to see all whats wrong, and if I say something they are like "you! why didnt u stay in germany then!"... they are so silly, I didnt change my mind after living in Germany... I realized the problems of my country BEFORE (and Im not a genius for that, its easy to see what wrong here), I think that mentality is typical chilean too: "all is perfect as it is and dont u ever critice us"...
Are there good things in Chile?, yes of course... but dont ask me for a list right now. ;-) Are there good people in Chile (who respect and dont lie and so on)?: yes, of course, but sometimes Im like "where are they?"... no, seriously, there are a lot, but there are another "lot" who have other codes, other languages, other customs, if you know what I mean.
I always say "there too many Chiles in Chile". Just look in my blog, under the label "Chile" and youll see what I think about my so special country.
And finally, is it easy to adapt to a country like Chile? Oh god, I dunno... My parents lived 10 years in Spain, then they came back and my mother need 3 years to feel fine in Chile again... Im back since a couple of months and Im handling well, but dont make me see pictures of Germany because I miss so many things! And I dont mean material things, its more about culture things...
I loved the final part of your post... its so true: If you are a happy person in the U.S. you'll probably be happy in Chile. If you're miserable wherever you are, don't even bother coming, because Chile will just compound that emotion and make you want to throw yourself off a cliff.
Thats the point! Sorry for the long comment...
Mamacita Chilena
· 1 year ago
To both Fned and Irantzu, thank you to both of you for your insightful comments.
Fned, I totally feel your pain, out of my group of about 9 friends, 3 will be gone within the next six months. But I can't really complain because we will be leaving in a year or two as well. In the meantime I'll just keep searching for cool expats to join my little group here...it's hard work finding them! Fned, want to move to Chile???
Haha, and I like the term teflon skin, never heard that before, but it's great!
Irantzu, it's so true that there are so many people out there heaping praises upon Chile, best economy, best city in South America, safest, blah blah blah, and you're right...they are ignoring a lot of the big problems that are right in front of their eyes, if they'd just open them.
Give credit where credit's due, Chile does have a fantastic economy that continues to grow. But what percentage of society is actually benefiting from all this economic growth. Umm, about 2%??? The other 98% are getting left behind!
But I don't need to tell you this, you already know!
Too many Chiles in Chile...never a truer word was spoken.
Emily
· 1 year ago
YES, I so agree with all of this! People definitely ask about whether it´s easy, and while everything is possible, nothing has ever been handed to me in Chile. Rodolfo and I now just say "estamos en Chile" in every situation where something is 5 times harder than I think it should be, coming from the US. Nothing is easy, even when you get the hang of it, because if you have any self-respect you just cannot get used to sacrificing your entire day to stand in various lines to complete what should be a simple errand! Or at least, I can´t seem to :) But as you said, really getting into the culture and realizing it will never be just like home is key to relaxing a bit and being able to appreciate where you are for what it is. And I´m glad to be one of your new gringa friends - promise I won´t move away any time soon!
Marta
· 1 year ago
Ah, I loved your post! Especially the part about the air-conditioning in the car...classic!!! (Clearly, that would have been a MAN speaking, sooo macho) My brother and one of my best friends have both lived in Santiago for 2 years each. They loved it, but it was HARD. It was for our church, so they didn't have to work, but spent most of their time doing service and teaching, but they lived in the Ghetto's too. Not the safest place to live, and I've also heard the horrific bus stories. Eeeeek, I'm not sure what's worse. Walking in miserable weather, or smelling the arm pits of the passenger next to you. Anyway, nice update!
Mamacita Chilena
· 1 year ago
Emily, Seba and I use the same line all the time! estamos en Chile, *sigh*
Haha, I'm glad you're not going anywhere anytime soon!
Marta, are you Mormon? There is a huge mormon community here! And for some reason they really like to eat at Subway, I always see them there :)
Reb
· 1 year ago
Mamacita, what a great post. I have always dreamed of living somewhere warm, but I know that I don't have what it takes. That line about being happy where you are is so true. I admire you for being honest about your experience there.
Here in Edmonton we are booming and have so many people from much larger cities in Canada looking for an easy buck. Then they turn around and complain there is nothing to do here! Well, what did you do at home? We may not have as many theaters etc, but they are there.
Anonymous
· 1 year ago
"If you're miserable wherever you are, then don't even bother coming"
hahaha...good point!
And I do remember getting an emotional roller coaster chart on culture shock from my study abroad office before I headed out of the country. It was basically spot on month-for-month of my emotions...so those three-month gals...well, let's just say, I bet they're thinking a bit differently in about 4 weeks.
why are there no gringo men here for Chilean women?
Here, here :) although i'm leaving with my chilean girl in may after almost 2 years...
chilean-caro
· 1 year ago
Hey Mamacita! I'm an American college student studying here in Santiago for the semester. I found your blog a while ago through the Lost Girls blog, but this is the first time I've commented because 1. I'm finally in Santiago, and 2. I'm yet another gringa (not an expat, but a gringa for sure). Anyways, just wanted to say hi, and that it was interesting to see the differing perspectives.
~Caroline
Mamacita Chilena
· 1 year ago
Good luck Roman! Where are you going?
Reb, I bet you do have what it takes...you might surprise yourself :)
Jayna, they must use that chart no matter where you study abroad, we looked at one of those too in the beginning here!
Caroline, we'll have to get together while you're here! Email me!
Teacher Girl
· 1 year ago
Hi Kyle!
Thanks for this fantastic post!
I am a gringa in Spain... and, as an international teacher, I have also been a gringa in Colombia and in Mexico. Your post really resonated with me.
Truth told, I started out in Colombia as a very unhappy gringa and, over time, learned how to become a relatively contented one in Mexico and in Spain which, in spite of its "developed" status is not Canada.
Living abroad for ten years has helped clarify a few things for me!
Growing up in Canada shaped me into a certain kind of person with certain expectations of how people should interact with each other. The most important of these is courtesy. Canada is my normal. So when I moved to Colombia as a very young teacher, I was totally thrown by this feeling that people did not care about me, a stranger, at all. One day I tripped on the street and fell SPECTACULARLY in front of a group of people waiting at a bus stop. My knee was scraped up, my trousers were torn and I was crying... yet no one asked if I was okay or if I needed help. During that time when I was struggling with my feelings of "otherness", one of my grade ten students asked why North Americans (meaning only Americans and Canadians) could be so nice to people they didn't know well but so cold and distant from their family and friends. I had never heard this essential question about our cultures articulated so clearly. We talked about this idea in class and discussed notions of courtesy and politeness... where they come from and how they become important to us as nation-states and individuals.
Along the camino to Spain, via Mexico, I have given up some of my expectations about courtesy from strangers and that's a good thing.
The question that I have recently been grappling with is why ARE we North Americans so cold (relatively speaking) with our families? From that Colombian student's perspective, we do not spend enough time with family... we do not make them the centre of our universes. Many of us were aching to move out of our parental homes when we reached 18...or as soon as we were finished high school. As DP, my partner, pointed out recently, the USA and Canada have that whole pioneer-origin thing happening. "Go West, young man/woman". There was land to be had and the idea that you could find a better life by leaving the place that you were born.
That idea has also shaped our personalities in terms of attending university at home or away. The vast majority of Colombian, Mexican and Spanish students with whom I have worked have no desire to move away... they have everything they need right "here" (wherever their home is). Sunday (in all three countries) is family day and even high school kids enjoy the day with todo la familia.
I have developed a soft spot for Family Day. We have much to learn from the Latin Americans and the Spanish where family ties are concerned. They forgive their family members their craziness and bad days and just accept them... without having to go on the Jerry Springer to work out their problems. That would be a good step forward.
People are different. Our tolerance for cultural difference varies wildly from person to person. Deciding to be open-minded about your new host culture, and the people in it, can save your bacon and help your really LIVE where you are instead of yearning for home and how things are done there. A willingness to adapt can help make your new country home, even if it is just for a while.
Ultimately, some people will have a rougher go than others... because of their personal circumstances and/or their ability to be open to this new life.
Sometimes, its better to go home.
Whew! That's a long response to your post. Thanks so much for starting this excellent conversation among expats.
Irantzu
· 1 year ago
I forgot to talk about why are there gringas and not gringos in Chile... I think its always like that! Women move to their mens countries... In germany we were a lot of latin women married to german men and WE all move, not them... WHY? Maybe because their salaries were better to begin a family, or I dunno... Sometimes men move and follow their women, but its not what ive seen the most.
carlos. that is in Spanish. could you translate it into english? what is it about.
Mamacita Chilena
· 1 year ago
Hi Teacher Girl, welcome to JMCS! Very true that ultimately sometimes the cultural differences are so huge that sometimes you can be left feeling totally alone...like you, I have a similar story about being on the streets of Chile and no one helping when I needed them to. A big stray dog bit me and wouldn't let go, he basically had my whole leg in his jaw! I was crying and screaming for help, and people were walking by as if I didn't exist. That would never happen in the U.S. partly, because there aren't as many stray dogs and partly because people are more willing to help a stranger.
In regards to the whole family thing, I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree with you. In Chile, what I've basically discovered is that the whole "latinos are so much closer to their families" is a total myth...at least here.
Well, I consider that saying to refer to being emotionally close to the family, not physically close. In physicality lots of Chileans are must "closer" to their families, but emotionally I definitely don't see it. Most families are giant disasters that hate each other and won't talk anything out. The parents smother the kids and the kids suck it up and go to the mom's house dutifully for lunch every week, resenting them all the while. Mothers won't cut the apron strings from their 35 year old "boys."
But that's just my experience in Chile, so I believe you when you say it's true in Mexico/Colombia/Spain. Chile is it 's own little world apart!
Thanks for the comment, come back again :)
Mamacita Chilena
· 1 year ago
Carlos, don't even get me started, piropos are hands down what I hate the most about Chile. I cannot leave my house without being verbally assaulted. And in the long run, that's really why I think that men assault women on the streets, manosean en el metro o micro, and eventually abuse women in their homes. It's just a huge part of the Machismo here.
Piropos are all about control-- basically they're a man's way of saying, Women, you're in my world and therefore I have the right to do what I want, say what I want and look at you as if you were a piece of meat. There's nothing I despise more in this country.
To anonymous, it's an article about men catcalling women on the street here. It's a HUGE problem.
Amanda
· 1 year ago
Pure unadulterated hate is a little strong a statement for my feelings... I like to call it a love-hate relationship! There really are lots of things I love about Chile. BUT I'm way excited to be heading home.
Chickenbells
· 1 year ago
Wow...that was an interesting and informative post. I think that there is something "romantic" in the idea of going to a foreign country and carving out a life for yourself, isn't there? But, nothing is always as romantic as it seems...there is always something. And I believe that you're totally right, and that you will probably most likely bring yourself and your attitude no matter where you go...it's super hard to escape that!!
niloc
· 1 year ago
There are quite a few Gringos living here with Chilenas (myself included)...maybe more Europeans than Americans true..
I also agree with fned in the first comment...I have had many gringo friends..but one by one they have all left. At some point it becomes more of a task to invest time in these sorts of things...and the connection seems a bit duller with each changing "generation," so you associate more with people who seem to be sticking around longer.
but despite what the Chile hating expats think of this country, its a nice place to be...I'll admit I've been very lucky in my experience in meeting the right people and coming across new opportunities right when I needed them most...
Carlos
· 1 year ago
Funny that a large proportion of idiots in Chile think that piropos are nice. And most of them are... women.
The Lonely Planet guide mentions somehting about foreign women not getting on with the local females. I just can't think of North-American/North European thinking that catcalling or wolf-whistling makes them feel 'good'.
The person who sent the letter is an American expat and it generates huge controversy. You wouldn't believe there was even a contest to choose the best piropos.
I do feel embarrased to be chilean sometimes, too often perhaps
TD
· 1 year ago
I always thought that it was great for people to visit/move to a different state/ let alone a different country! I think it is awesome that people put away fears to just pack up for love, job, whatever I think it would be so much fun!
Lisa B.
· 1 year ago
My first visit to Chile was in the dead of winter. It was always raining and cold inside and out ... but damn, I loved the place anyway. Something about it just made some kind of sense to me ... I think it was just how welcoming and hospitable everyone was to me. Lots of cute boys, too--I was a little boy-crazy back then ;-)
Clare
· 1 year ago
Oooo. Ooo. That means I get a badge. I lived right behind the casa central de Universidad Catolica on Diagonal Paraguay when I was in Santiago. In Valparaiso I lived in Cerro Polanco... which might be an even worse neighborhood. That being said, if you can meet people, you can make place home. Even if Providencia and above or Recreo where I now live are much nicer.
That girl
· 1 year ago
I was married previously, to a mexican man. I left canada and moved to Mexico to be with him, we lived there for 4 years. I so remember what it's like to have such a dramatic change...not only the language, but the culture.
I remember washing our clothes on this rock board, with cold water...yikes.
Through it all though, and especially looking back, I wouldn't have traded that experience for anything. For one, I speak spanish now, and I appreciate every experience so much more.
But I do have to say latin men are definitly hard to resist....mmmmm.
marceloszo
· 1 year ago
I was looking for something else (no, was not looking for gringas :) ) and bumped into this blog. I liked it, you really have an interesting point of view.
In my experience, the more you get surrounded with other gringos, the harder it gets to adjust to the country. It gets easier to "look down" many things of the country, and slowly you tend to live in a small bubble. It depends on the people you hang out with and how each person wants to live their own experience.
Go out, explore.. enjoy...laugh at things.... after you leave you will be craving to come back!.
By the way, mamacita tell me if wrong but the experience of living in chile is before september and post september.....throughout the year we chileans suffer a methamorfosis. From April until August 31st, when it gets cold, rainy, dark etc.etc.. this country its all about work, people in the streets are very unfriendly, no one will go out of their way to help you, you are most likely to get robbed, etc. But then it comes September, we are all friends with everyone, people changes, the whole mindset changes, (besides from the point that the whole country is covered with chilean flags). Then October, November it gets warmer, so it happens the same thing that in every country, and people tend to relax more, but the first semestes is hard for anyone!.
great post!
Mamacita Chilena
· 1 year ago
Hey Marcelo! Thanks for the comment :) Your comment about not making friends with gringos is a nice point of view, but not very feasible if you want to know the truth. If I'm not friends with gringos who am I supposed to be friends with? I have ONE Chilena friend. Chilean women are EXTREMELY difficult to get to know and be friends. They're so jealous that they automatically assume that you're out to get their men. I have been here for 3 years now and only 4 months ago did I start making friends with gringas. Really, the only reason I reached out for gringa friends is because I have tried, and tried and tried some more to make friends with Chilenas, but they just don't accept me as one of their own so I finally gave up.
That Girl, YES, Latin men are very hard to resist, hahaha, that had me cracking up :)
Haha, Clare you can definitely have a badge of honor. I don't know anything about Valpo but if you say Cerro Polanco is hardcore I'll take your word for it!
Lisa, I actually like Chilean winters...for some reason the dreariness outside just makes me grateful and all the more happy that I can be inside and cozy in my fuzzy blankets with my man. So I understand what you're staying!
TD, it's fun but a lot of hard work and frustrations too.
Carlos, don't be embarrassed to be Chilean...I've found that the men of this country (or at least the ones that aren't too busy tirar'ing piropos) are pretty awesome! I've found the men to be much warmer and welcoming. You're right that mostly women are the ones who think piropos are ok. It's amazing how machismo here is promoted by both men and even more women. Kind of insane really! I can't believe that a woman would WANT to be subjected to the humiliation of piropos.
Niloc, so nice to meet you. I really haven't met many men, like I said. So I'm glad to see that there are a few expat gringO's living here with their Chilenas as well :)
Chickenbells, definitely the truth...nothing is as romantic as it seems!
Carlos
· 1 year ago
To Mamacita and Marcelo.
It is quite embarrassing, and with the next story Marcelo I want to illustrate my point.
It is March now and I came back from Europe for some time, after 2 years away. The good thing is that upfront I'm prepared to expect shit. At Inmigración I handed my Chilean passport and that police piece of paper. And this was the dialogue:
Police woman: Where's your other paper?
(no Good morning nothing, just a woman with a rotweiller face)
Me: Sorry, what paper?
(I am polite)
PW: The papee Me: This one? PW: No, the one you got when you left the country. Me: Sorry ma'am, I left Chile 2 years ago, I don't recall any paper to get in again PW: Yes, there's a paper, why you don't have it?! Me: Alrigh... "Welcome to Chile" that is then PW: Just for today I won't make a fuss over this
(being good looking helps me)
Me (pissed off): Sorry but I have traveled a number of occasions and this is the first time this happens, believe me not ven going to Europe I've been asked for a paper handed when I left-
PW: Well, here in Chile we're rigurous
Me: What if the dog ate it, what am I supposed to do? PW: You request one Me: Where? PW: Here Me: In Chile? PW: Obviously Me: I see, I don't have a paper to get in, so I need to get in to request one so you can let me in.
I realised after the "dog ate it" joke that I was about to have my family waiting for a few extra hours, but I got away with it (again, I'm gorgeous)
But if that's not it. I went through ANOTHER checkpoint, the SAG.
SAG woman checks my rucksack, incidentallyit is a sports bag. She thoroughly checked it and having experienced being taken toxic French cheese and Spanish sausages, you know highly radioactive products, I brough just biscuits, teas and stuff. But this woman found a fucking old banana I had left in my sports bag after I went to the gym on Tuesday, and after I run I have a banana. This one ended at the bottom and to my horror it was shown to me right at the SAG control in SCL.
SAG: what does this mean? Me: Looks like a banana SAG: Show me your sworn declaration (again, no "please") Me: here you go SAG: But you say here you don't bring fruits Me: I don't, what was by mistake, I didn´t realise SAG: I had to fine you then Me: WHAT!!!!! SAG: yes, a fine, you're in breach of the regulations by bringing fruits Me: No no, I'm sorry that's an old banana....
And I explained the whole story of the gym, my sports bag, potassium after running, etc.
I explained that by applying the law they are just being unjust. There's a criteria to enforce the law and that an old banana worth a few cents cannot justify a fine! I explained I didn't intend to lie, until a man came, apparently the supervisor, and he understood and let me in. He said "you're wrong but we can make an exception".
Amazingly, after he left and I was authrised to leave, the woman said I AM SORRY I HAVE TO FINE YOU!
I packed up my things and after fighting with some taxi drivers, I finally met my family.
All this to enter my OWN flippin' country!! What a great way to start my holidays.
Tomorrow my sister hs a job interview and she has to show a legal proof she's single, she was requested at the infamous "Notaría" two witnesses, not her relatives (just in case she went with my mum). She managed to convince two old folks waiting there to act as witnesses. How stupid is that?
How stupid is to ask for papers that if you don't have they just annoy you, don't they have a computer to check who has left? How ridiculous is that sense of stupidity and red paper and rudeness everywhere.
I've lived abroad for many years and horrible things have happened but I understand, it's not my country. When I see these things happening here, I get angry.
Marcelo, it is march, I have a lot of chilean friends, and people here are shit, no matter the time of the year.
Carlos
· 1 year ago
Addenda: sorry I meant red tape, and I realised I wrote with so many typos! And BTW I'm ugly just like all chilean men.
That Girl: You haven't been to Chile.
marceloszo
· 1 year ago
Hey Carlos,
First of all Im chilean, and dont intend to defend anything, so I will not take that approach, I actually enjoy reading to all these shit that happens in Chile. Because I have bitched and moaned about other countries as well when living abroad. (chile is paradise compared to the shit that can happen to you in south east asia and india)
The inmigration paper, you are right, its bullshit. Its the wrong enforcement of the law. That paper was intended for people who leaves the country (brazil, argentina, peru, etc) with their Identity cards, therefore there is no legal document to show you have legally exited the country. (The paper has the same stamp you get in your passport when leaving the country)
In my case, even when going to these countries I have used my passport, and always end up loosing that paper, but its just being able to handle things at a country´s border. They cannot fine you for not having that paper, they cannot take you into custody, at the most you will spend more time in the line talking to the woman.
Now, the banana, as I have read you have traveled a lot, and a banana here, in Europe, in the states, even in asia or africa will get you troubles. I dont think that is something we can say "it only happens in chile", specially when the SAG is so rigorous about it. I´ve been in the same situation with some sausages, or some properly packed organic cookies, but there is no way you will go through. It is understandable, they have to be anal, I have seen people bringing raw meat, fruits, even live animals in their luggage.
At least you had the chance to talk to the people about the fine, Im sure wherever you came from in Europe, you would have had to pay the fine right away, without even saying a word. Its one of those things in Europe, where they trust you dont bring shit, so they wont check you, but if you happen to be stopped by a random check and you had the banana, you would have been fucked.
About your sister, havent heard of a job that requires a proof of being single, so I cant comment on that.
Im sure you are mad because of all the shit you went through.. just ask one of your friends to take you out for a beer and chill out....
Carlos
· 1 year ago
If the Chilean economy is in jeopardy because of a smallish black old banana, man, this economy is sad. At least fine people and make the money go to charity. My point is that I was neither bringing foreign produce into the country, or worse, smuggling bananas. It was the one old banana, cannot justify one UTM fine (over 40 lucas).
For a beer and chill out is even worse mate. You go to the bar, order your stuff, go to the cashier, pay, get a receipt, go back to the bar tender.
I actually had a stomach bug (welcome to Chile again) and I had forgotten how great it is to order, pay, and collect your medicine from three different people: Chilean efficiency.
Mamacita complains over Chilean women. It is nearly impossible to have an insightful interesting conversation with a Chilean woman, or at least for more that 3 minutes. I have met so many gringas and they always have something interesting to say, and in some cases even something boring to say, but at least "something" to say. I just can't cope with the average chilean girl cheesy music habits, oh man how can they possibly enjoy that awful music. Well, that's one of many things. The most infuriating one is by far the inability to live abroad without complaining over absoutely everything and the ridiculous jealousy and control-freak obssesives.
I know I sound awful, but I now have a French girlfriend and for once I know what it is going out for drinks with my mates without that typically Chilean manipulative make-you-feel-guilty attitude, rather than "you're drunk again I'm sick of you", not something you hear from the British or Irish, who are as drunk as men and nobody makes a fuss about it.
I hate giving advice but you gringas are too honest, it just doesn't go down very well here. You have to learn the manipulative two-faced over-sentimental ways of the girls here if you want to fit in. If you're talkative, that will make you the odd one out. And if on top of things you're blonde, I wish you good luck, cos you will need it.
But the most interesting and bizarre thing is how shocking it is for women to be trated as equals here. There's this sort of feminist wave going on now. But for a man to trat women like equals means one is boring and cold, or "weirdo", which now I take it as a compliment.
In the end I made good friends of the fw of my female friends who managed a while abroad, and even married gringos, so lately even the "snooty" adjective has been added to the list.
Oh, and about the beer, this is one thing different for Americans (their unreal laws on selling alcohol), but the North European gringas, that's fun to have a drinking session.
But don't try coffee either, the girls here all suffer colon irritable, but if they don't, they wouldn't like the taste of coffee either.
OK, I better go and come back when I find something positive to say.
Fned
· 1 year ago
Carlos,
Apologies for interrupting the debate here, and of course I feel your pain getting all frustrated when you have to do any official tramites in your country and realize how totally f*cked up the system can be compared to other countries (I wrote about a similar experience at the Mexican Embassy a few months ago in my blog)
However, I'm married to a french guy who says that all french girls are "chiantes"..... (that's why he married a mexican, *wink*). I guess you're willing to accept the annoying stuff in French girls that drive French guys nuts the same way gringos accept the annoying stuff in Chilean girls that Chilean guys simply can't tolerate. Isn't Multiculturism just so cool??? ;-)
I think it all comes down to the way we're willing to accept the "quirckiness" of the country you are in, which is obviously the point Mamacita was trying to make in her post. This of course applies to expats living abroad.... but equally like in our case, to citizens returning to the home land.
Peace out. Fned.
Carlos
· 1 year ago
Fned, muticulturalism is good. But only if Chileans were more concerned about minding their own business and stopped being so judgemental, close-minded, nosey and not honest, it'd help.
I don't want to go on and on but there's the stereotype that "gringas are easy" which obviosuly makes the native girls act a bit odd.
(and about your French husband, I understand him in a way... the sudden screaming over minor things, the cronic bad mood, etc, but the cooking oh la la ;-)
Anonymous
· 1 year ago
I just read your post on this and I have to tell you the day you posted it I was flying back from Chile. I had gave up everything in the US and relocated me and my kid to be with my husband who is chilean and because of immigration problems could not stay here. Anyway, my first 3 days in Chile were awesome then reality kicked in and my husband had to got to work in in another city Coquimbo to be exact which was 6 hours away and I was left with the in-laws to wait for him to get settled and that way we could all be together-and that's when it happened I had baby mama drama from the old high school girlfriend whom has a child , the chick actually came and tried to break in in the middle of the night and everything from there went down hill. I had read your blog for months before I went and I was inspired and thought I could do it as well but when I got down there and reality kicked in and had to keep hearing about how difficult it was to be there and how I won't be having my hair done or nails done like in the US and how wasteful I was for eating out I had my feel and booked the next flight out. I give it to you for being able to stick out there and now I understand totally what you are talking about when you tell us the ups and downs to chile.
Mamacita Chilena
· 1 year ago
anonymous, sounds like a rough experience. Living with the in-laws is always hell no matter what country you're in, but Chilean inlaws just have that special something about them, don't they???
And crazy ex-girlfriends...oh yes, let's not even start talking about that subject!
Sorry to hear all that :(
socióblogo
· 1 year ago
I think you are so right about how we glorify suffering. It's probably one of the things I dislike the most about this country (I am chilean). People not only will brag about not using the A.C. when it's 36C° degrees. They will also brag about how many hours a day they work (usually more than 9) and how that makes them so great, not realizing that if we work that much it's probably not because we're excellent workers, but because we need hours to complete tasks that should be done in minutes (in fact, we have one of the lowest productivity levels in the world).
About the experiencie of living in this City, I think it can be defined by two these two factors:
1. Place (comuna) of the city that you live in. This is heavily determined by income, but not only by that; people who were born in Maipú will probably live there all of their lifes, even if they could afford Vitacura. There's not too much geographic mobility.
2. Social networks of friends and family that you belong to. Networks and groups of friends can be *really* closed. Strangers are not always welcome. This might be a consequence of the fact (statistically proven by international studies and polls)that in Chile we have one of the lowest levels of interpersonal trust *in the world*.
There are certainly more factors involved, but these 2 have the power of defining the identities of people and also defining which country they get to know and experience, because, yes, there's a lot of different Chiles in Chile.
Nice post and nice blog, I will visit again. Sorry for my broken english and sorry for getting all sociologist (¿boring?) in this comment.
All Comments
But first an insert here: How cool that you have so many expat friends!!! I've been living in Paris for 6 years and slowly but surely ALL of my expat or french friends have moved abroad (some go back home, others move to another city for the the thrills and some just plain leave)... it gets lonely after a while and makes you want to leave yourself even though you have a great life and love it here.
Anyway, it's so true about how you can never fully explain or predict what people are going to go through when do take the Big expat-jump.
For some it is hard for a while but you enjoy it because you know it's worth it to be with the person you love (and plus you know there will be payback in the end) and that's the way I see my personal experience, for others it is sooooo easy you can't help but envy them (and yeah, money does help but also having incredibly good luck or a "teflon" skin) and then there are those who simply don't get it and you actually feel sad for them.
I'm talkging about those who go live abroad wanting the same life they left behind. The moment a person doesn't understand that when you "go expat" YOU WILL have to adapt, YOU WILL have to indulge, YOU WILL have to accept and YOU WILL have to learn... if you don't get that, don't bother doing it.
Anyway, great great great post.
Bises,
Fned.
Fned.
Yes, its not easy to adapt to a any new country, but in some countries its more difficult because its just the opposite of all what you know.
Anyway, you never know...
I met latin people in Germany who hated it! I could not believe it... I totally loved Germany (well, maybe not "totally", but 90% of everything was just RIGHT to me)...
I know a german woman here in Chile who said she would never come back to live in Germany because she loves how Chile and chilean people are (I know...)
So, I guess it depends a little on the country, and a little on the person itself.
Since always I felt a lot of things were wrong in Chile... the "micros", the "lanzas", uf, its a looong list... but after living in Germany I see all even clearer, and I cannot imagine how hard is to understand this "culture" for a foreigner.
I have nothing against my country and my people, whats more, Im sure all comes from a social problem, lack of culture and education... and hopefully soon I will be working a little on that, but god, I hate a lot of situations!
And I hate when I hear on the news "Chile is one of the best countries in Southamerica", "Chile is economically growing so much", just BLAH.
There are chilean people who say Chile is cool how it is, they are too lazy to see all whats wrong, and if I say something they are like "you! why didnt u stay in germany then!"... they are so silly, I didnt change my mind after living in Germany... I realized the problems of my country BEFORE (and Im not a genius for that, its easy to see what wrong here), I think that mentality is typical chilean too: "all is perfect as it is and dont u ever critice us"...
Are there good things in Chile?, yes of course... but dont ask me for a list right now. ;-)
Are there good people in Chile (who respect and dont lie and so on)?: yes, of course, but sometimes Im like "where are they?"... no, seriously, there are a lot, but there are another "lot" who have other codes, other languages, other customs, if you know what I mean.
I always say "there too many Chiles in Chile". Just look in my blog, under the label "Chile" and youll see what I think about my so special country.
And finally, is it easy to adapt to a country like Chile? Oh god, I dunno... My parents lived 10 years in Spain, then they came back and my mother need 3 years to feel fine in Chile again... Im back since a couple of months and Im handling well, but dont make me see pictures of Germany because I miss so many things! And I dont mean material things, its more about culture things...
I loved the final part of your post... its so true: If you are a happy person in the U.S. you'll probably be happy in Chile. If you're miserable wherever you are, don't even bother coming, because Chile will just compound that emotion and make you want to throw yourself off a cliff.
Thats the point!
Sorry for the long comment...
Fned, I totally feel your pain, out of my group of about 9 friends, 3 will be gone within the next six months. But I can't really complain because we will be leaving in a year or two as well. In the meantime I'll just keep searching for cool expats to join my little group here...it's hard work finding them! Fned, want to move to Chile???
Haha, and I like the term teflon skin, never heard that before, but it's great!
Irantzu, it's so true that there are so many people out there heaping praises upon Chile, best economy, best city in South America, safest, blah blah blah, and you're right...they are ignoring a lot of the big problems that are right in front of their eyes, if they'd just open them.
Give credit where credit's due, Chile does have a fantastic economy that continues to grow. But what percentage of society is actually benefiting from all this economic growth. Umm, about 2%??? The other 98% are getting left behind!
But I don't need to tell you this, you already know!
Too many Chiles in Chile...never a truer word was spoken.
Haha, I'm glad you're not going anywhere anytime soon!
Marta, are you Mormon? There is a huge mormon community here! And for some reason they really like to eat at Subway, I always see them there :)
Here in Edmonton we are booming and have so many people from much larger cities in Canada looking for an easy buck. Then they turn around and complain there is nothing to do here! Well, what did you do at home? We may not have as many theaters etc, but they are there.
hahaha...good point!
And I do remember getting an emotional roller coaster chart on culture shock from my study abroad office before I headed out of the country. It was basically spot on month-for-month of my emotions...so those three-month gals...well, let's just say, I bet they're thinking a bit differently in about 4 weeks.
But yeah...life is basically what you make of it.
Jayna
Here, here :) although i'm leaving with my chilean girl in may after almost 2 years...
~Caroline
Reb, I bet you do have what it takes...you might surprise yourself :)
Jayna, they must use that chart no matter where you study abroad, we looked at one of those too in the beginning here!
Caroline, we'll have to get together while you're here! Email me!
Thanks for this fantastic post!
I am a gringa in Spain... and, as an international teacher, I have also been a gringa in Colombia and in Mexico. Your post really resonated with me.
Truth told, I started out in Colombia as a very unhappy gringa and, over time, learned how to become a relatively contented one in Mexico and in Spain which, in spite of its "developed" status is not Canada.
Living abroad for ten years has helped clarify a few things for me!
Growing up in Canada shaped me into a certain kind of person with certain expectations of how people should interact with each other. The most important of these is courtesy. Canada is my normal. So when I moved to Colombia as a very young teacher, I was totally thrown by this feeling that people did not care about me, a stranger, at all. One day I tripped on the street and fell SPECTACULARLY in front of a group of people waiting at a bus stop. My knee was scraped up, my trousers were torn and I was crying... yet no one asked if I was okay or if I needed help. During that time when I was struggling with my feelings of "otherness", one of my grade ten students asked why North Americans (meaning only Americans and Canadians) could be so nice to people they didn't know well but so cold and distant from their family and friends. I had never heard this essential question about our cultures articulated so clearly. We talked about this idea in class and discussed notions of courtesy and politeness... where they come from and how they become important to us as nation-states and individuals.
Along the camino to Spain, via Mexico, I have given up some of my expectations about courtesy from strangers and that's a good thing.
The question that I have recently been grappling with is why ARE we North Americans so cold (relatively speaking) with our families? From that Colombian student's perspective, we do not spend enough time with family... we do not make them the centre of our universes. Many of us were aching to move out of our parental homes when we reached 18...or as soon as we were finished high school. As DP, my partner, pointed out recently, the USA and Canada have that whole pioneer-origin thing happening. "Go West, young man/woman". There was land to be had and the idea that you could find a better life by leaving the place that you were born.
That idea has also shaped our personalities in terms of attending university at home or away. The vast majority of Colombian, Mexican and Spanish students with whom I have worked have no desire to move away... they have everything they need right "here" (wherever their home is). Sunday (in all three countries) is family day and even high school kids enjoy the day with todo la familia.
I have developed a soft spot for Family Day. We have much to learn from the Latin Americans and the Spanish where family ties are concerned. They forgive their family members their craziness and bad days and just accept them... without having to go on the Jerry Springer to work out their problems. That would be a good step forward.
People are different. Our tolerance for cultural difference varies wildly from person to person. Deciding to be open-minded about your new host culture, and the people in it, can save your bacon and help your really LIVE where you are instead of yearning for home and how things are done there. A willingness to adapt can help make your new country home, even if it is just for a while.
Ultimately, some people will have a rougher go than others... because of their personal circumstances and/or their ability to be open to this new life.
Sometimes, its better to go home.
Whew! That's a long response to your post. Thanks so much for starting this excellent conversation among expats.
I think its always like that! Women move to their mens countries...
In germany we were a lot of latin women married to german men and WE all move, not them... WHY? Maybe because their salaries were better to begin a family, or I dunno... Sometimes men move and follow their women, but its not what ive seen the most.
Piropos en Chile
What do you think?
could you translate it into english?
what is it about.
In regards to the whole family thing, I'm afraid I have to respectfully disagree with you. In Chile, what I've basically discovered is that the whole "latinos are so much closer to their families" is a total myth...at least here.
Well, I consider that saying to refer to being emotionally close to the family, not physically close. In physicality lots of Chileans are must "closer" to their families, but emotionally I definitely don't see it. Most families are giant disasters that hate each other and won't talk anything out. The parents smother the kids and the kids suck it up and go to the mom's house dutifully for lunch every week, resenting them all the while. Mothers won't cut the apron strings from their 35 year old "boys."
But that's just my experience in Chile, so I believe you when you say it's true in Mexico/Colombia/Spain. Chile is it 's own little world apart!
Thanks for the comment, come back again :)
Piropos are all about control-- basically they're a man's way of saying, Women, you're in my world and therefore I have the right to do what I want, say what I want and look at you as if you were a piece of meat. There's nothing I despise more in this country.
To anonymous, it's an article about men catcalling women on the street here. It's a HUGE problem.
I also agree with fned in the first comment...I have had many gringo friends..but one by one they have all left. At some point it becomes more of a task to invest time in these sorts of things...and the connection seems a bit duller with each changing "generation," so you associate more with people who seem to be sticking around longer.
but despite what the Chile hating expats think of this country, its a nice place to be...I'll admit I've been very lucky in my experience in meeting the right people and coming across new opportunities right when I needed them most...
The Lonely Planet guide mentions somehting about foreign women not getting on with the local females. I just can't think of North-American/North European thinking that catcalling or wolf-whistling makes them feel 'good'.
The person who sent the letter is an American expat and it generates huge controversy. You wouldn't believe there was even a contest to choose the best piropos.
I do feel embarrased to be chilean sometimes, too often perhaps
I remember washing our clothes on this rock board, with cold water...yikes.
Through it all though, and especially looking back, I wouldn't have traded that experience for anything. For one, I speak spanish now, and I appreciate every experience so much more.
But I do have to say latin men are definitly hard to resist....mmmmm.
In my experience, the more you get surrounded with other gringos, the harder it gets to adjust to the country. It gets easier to "look down" many things of the country, and slowly you tend to live in a small bubble. It depends on the people you hang out with and how each person wants to live their own experience.
Go out, explore.. enjoy...laugh at things.... after you leave you will be craving to come back!.
By the way, mamacita tell me if wrong but the experience of living in chile is before september and post september.....throughout the year we chileans suffer a methamorfosis. From April until August 31st, when it gets cold, rainy, dark etc.etc.. this country its all about work, people in the streets are very unfriendly, no one will go out of their way to help you, you are most likely to get robbed, etc.
But then it comes September, we are all friends with everyone, people changes, the whole mindset changes, (besides from the point that the whole country is covered with chilean flags).
Then October, November it gets warmer, so it happens the same thing that in every country, and people tend to relax more, but the first semestes is hard for anyone!.
great post!
That Girl, YES, Latin men are very hard to resist, hahaha, that had me cracking up :)
Haha, Clare you can definitely have a badge of honor. I don't know anything about Valpo but if you say Cerro Polanco is hardcore I'll take your word for it!
Lisa, I actually like Chilean winters...for some reason the dreariness outside just makes me grateful and all the more happy that I can be inside and cozy in my fuzzy blankets with my man. So I understand what you're staying!
TD, it's fun but a lot of hard work and frustrations too.
Carlos, don't be embarrassed to be Chilean...I've found that the men of this country (or at least the ones that aren't too busy tirar'ing piropos) are pretty awesome! I've found the men to be much warmer and welcoming. You're right that mostly women are the ones who think piropos are ok. It's amazing how machismo here is promoted by both men and even more women. Kind of insane really! I can't believe that a woman would WANT to be subjected to the humiliation of piropos.
Niloc, so nice to meet you. I really haven't met many men, like I said. So I'm glad to see that there are a few expat gringO's living here with their Chilenas as well :)
Chickenbells, definitely the truth...nothing is as romantic as it seems!
It is quite embarrassing, and with the next story Marcelo I want to illustrate my point.
It is March now and I came back from Europe for some time, after 2 years away. The good thing is that upfront I'm prepared to expect shit. At Inmigración I handed my Chilean passport and that police piece of paper. And this was the dialogue:
Police woman: Where's your other paper?
(no Good morning nothing, just a woman with a rotweiller face)
Me: Sorry, what paper?
(I am polite)
PW: The papee
Me: This one?
PW: No, the one you got when you left the country.
Me: Sorry ma'am, I left Chile 2 years ago, I don't recall any paper to get in again
PW: Yes, there's a paper, why you don't have it?!
Me: Alrigh... "Welcome to Chile" that is then
PW: Just for today I won't make a fuss over this
(being good looking helps me)
Me (pissed off): Sorry but I have traveled a number of occasions and this is the first time this happens, believe me not ven going to Europe I've been asked for a paper handed when I left-
PW: Well, here in Chile we're rigurous
Me: What if the dog ate it, what am I supposed to do?
PW: You request one
Me: Where?
PW: Here
Me: In Chile?
PW: Obviously
Me: I see, I don't have a paper to get in, so I need to get in to request one so you can let me in.
I realised after the "dog ate it" joke that I was about to have my family waiting for a few extra hours, but I got away with it (again, I'm gorgeous)
But if that's not it. I went through ANOTHER checkpoint, the SAG.
SAG woman checks my rucksack, incidentallyit is a sports bag. She thoroughly checked it and having experienced being taken toxic French cheese and Spanish sausages, you know highly radioactive products, I brough just biscuits, teas and stuff. But this woman found a fucking old banana I had left in my sports bag after I went to the gym on Tuesday, and after I run I have a banana. This one ended at the bottom and to my horror it was shown to me right at the SAG control in SCL.
SAG: what does this mean?
Me: Looks like a banana
SAG: Show me your sworn declaration (again, no "please")
Me: here you go
SAG: But you say here you don't bring fruits
Me: I don't, what was by mistake, I didn´t realise
SAG: I had to fine you then
Me: WHAT!!!!!
SAG: yes, a fine, you're in breach of the regulations by bringing fruits
Me: No no, I'm sorry that's an old banana....
And I explained the whole story of the gym, my sports bag, potassium after running, etc.
I explained that by applying the law they are just being unjust. There's a criteria to enforce the law and that an old banana worth a few cents cannot justify a fine! I explained I didn't intend to lie, until a man came, apparently the supervisor, and he understood and let me in. He said "you're wrong but we can make an exception".
Amazingly, after he left and I was authrised to leave, the woman said I AM SORRY I HAVE TO FINE YOU!
I packed up my things and after fighting with some taxi drivers, I finally met my family.
All this to enter my OWN flippin' country!! What a great way to start my holidays.
Tomorrow my sister hs a job interview and she has to show a legal proof she's single, she was requested at the infamous "Notaría" two witnesses, not her relatives (just in case she went with my mum). She managed to convince two old folks waiting there to act as witnesses. How stupid is that?
How stupid is to ask for papers that if you don't have they just annoy you, don't they have a computer to check who has left? How ridiculous is that sense of stupidity and red paper and rudeness everywhere.
I've lived abroad for many years and horrible things have happened but I understand, it's not my country. When I see these things happening here, I get angry.
Marcelo, it is march, I have a lot of chilean friends, and people here are shit, no matter the time of the year.
That Girl: You haven't been to Chile.
First of all Im chilean, and dont intend to defend anything, so I will not take that approach, I actually enjoy reading to all these shit that happens in Chile. Because I have bitched and moaned about other countries as well when living abroad. (chile is paradise compared to the shit that can happen to you in south east asia and india)
The inmigration paper, you are right, its bullshit. Its the wrong enforcement of the law. That paper was intended for people who leaves the country (brazil, argentina, peru, etc) with their Identity cards, therefore there is no legal document to show you have legally exited the country. (The paper has the same stamp you get in your passport when leaving the country)
In my case, even when going to these countries I have used my passport, and always end up loosing that paper, but its just being able to handle things at a country´s border. They cannot fine you for not having that paper, they cannot take you into custody, at the most you will spend more time in the line talking to the woman.
Now, the banana, as I have read you have traveled a lot, and a banana here, in Europe, in the states, even in asia or africa will get you troubles. I dont think that is something we can say "it only happens in chile", specially when the SAG is so rigorous about it.
I´ve been in the same situation with some sausages, or some properly packed organic cookies, but there is no way you will go through. It is understandable, they have to be anal, I have seen people bringing raw meat, fruits, even live animals in their luggage.
At least you had the chance to talk to the people about the fine, Im sure wherever you came from in Europe, you would have had to pay the fine right away, without even saying a word. Its one of those things in Europe, where they trust you dont bring shit, so they wont check you, but if you happen to be stopped by a random check and you had the banana, you would have been fucked.
About your sister, havent heard of a job that requires a proof of being single, so I cant comment on that.
Im sure you are mad because of all the shit you went through.. just ask one of your friends to take you out for a beer and chill out....
For a beer and chill out is even worse mate. You go to the bar, order your stuff, go to the cashier, pay, get a receipt, go back to the bar tender.
I actually had a stomach bug (welcome to Chile again) and I had forgotten how great it is to order, pay, and collect your medicine from three different people: Chilean efficiency.
Mamacita complains over Chilean women. It is nearly impossible to have an insightful interesting conversation with a Chilean woman, or at least for more that 3 minutes. I have met so many gringas and they always have something interesting to say, and in some cases even something boring to say, but at least "something" to say. I just can't cope with the average chilean girl cheesy music habits, oh man how can they possibly enjoy that awful music. Well, that's one of many things. The most infuriating one is by far the inability to live abroad without complaining over absoutely everything and the ridiculous jealousy and control-freak obssesives.
I know I sound awful, but I now have a French girlfriend and for once I know what it is going out for drinks with my mates without that typically Chilean manipulative make-you-feel-guilty attitude, rather than "you're drunk again I'm sick of you", not something you hear from the British or Irish, who are as drunk as men and nobody makes a fuss about it.
I hate giving advice but you gringas are too honest, it just doesn't go down very well here. You have to learn the manipulative two-faced over-sentimental ways of the girls here if you want to fit in. If you're talkative, that will make you the odd one out. And if on top of things you're blonde, I wish you good luck, cos you will need it.
But the most interesting and bizarre thing is how shocking it is for women to be trated as equals here. There's this sort of feminist wave going on now. But for a man to trat women like equals means one is boring and cold, or "weirdo", which now I take it as a compliment.
In the end I made good friends of the fw of my female friends who managed a while abroad, and even married gringos, so lately even the "snooty" adjective has been added to the list.
Oh, and about the beer, this is one thing different for Americans (their unreal laws on selling alcohol), but the North European gringas, that's fun to have a drinking session.
But don't try coffee either, the girls here all suffer colon irritable, but if they don't, they wouldn't like the taste of coffee either.
OK, I better go and come back when I find something positive to say.
Apologies for interrupting the debate here, and of course I feel your pain getting all frustrated when you have to do any official tramites in your country and realize how totally f*cked up the system can be compared to other countries (I wrote about a similar experience at the Mexican Embassy a few months ago in my blog)
However, I'm married to a french guy who says that all french girls are "chiantes"..... (that's why he married a mexican, *wink*). I guess you're willing to accept the annoying stuff in French girls that drive French guys nuts the same way gringos accept the annoying stuff in Chilean girls that Chilean guys simply can't tolerate. Isn't Multiculturism just so cool??? ;-)
I think it all comes down to the way we're willing to accept the "quirckiness" of the country you are in, which is obviously the point Mamacita was trying to make in her post. This of course applies to expats living abroad.... but equally like in our case, to citizens returning to the home land.
Peace out.
Fned.
I don't want to go on and on but there's the stereotype that "gringas are easy" which obviosuly makes the native girls act a bit odd.
(and about your French husband, I understand him in a way... the sudden screaming over minor things, the cronic bad mood, etc, but the cooking oh la la ;-)
And crazy ex-girlfriends...oh yes, let's not even start talking about that subject!
Sorry to hear all that :(
About the experiencie of living in this City, I think it can be defined by two these two factors:
1. Place (comuna) of the city that you live in. This is heavily determined by income, but not only by that; people who were born in Maipú will probably live there all of their lifes, even if they could afford Vitacura. There's not too much geographic mobility.
2. Social networks of friends and family that you belong to. Networks and groups of friends can be *really* closed. Strangers are not always welcome. This might be a consequence of the fact (statistically proven by international studies and polls)that in Chile we have one of the lowest levels of interpersonal trust *in the world*.
There are certainly more factors involved, but these 2 have the power of defining the identities of people and also defining which country they get to know and experience, because, yes, there's a lot of different Chiles in Chile.
Nice post and nice blog, I will visit again. Sorry for my broken english and sorry for getting all sociologist (¿boring?) in this comment.